Scottish independence

I find it hurtful too Tegan but Scottish friends who've moved south of the border and have no intention of going back, tell me not to take it personally and it's only our government that's the problem - and oil. Before oil Scotland was happy to be part of the family. It's like that couple who won the lottery and have now split because they argue too much about how to spend it.

I feel a bit hurt by all this . Thinking of a scenario whereby there wasn't any North Sea Oil at all so no one could benefit from it, and England being in dire straits financially [nothing new there then]. And then people in England wanting to vote to cut ourselves off from Scotland which in this dystopian vision is costing us money. But, that would never happen because [I think I'm right in saying this] we wouldn't do that because it would be a bit shabby. I know I'm over simplifying it all but I don't understand it anyway. I sometimes feel that the whole world hates us [think Eurovision Song Contest] including the countries we're joined to . The Billy No Mates of the whole world. Are we really that evil?

Pogs The Barnett formula is an interesting one. As you will know everytime there is an increase in an English budget - Education, Health, etc. there is a corresponding per capita increase in that portion of the Scottish budget. How that extra money is spent is then up to the Scottish Parliament. However since the Conservatives came to power all we have had are budget cuts, with corresponding cuts in the Scottish Block Grant. Increases in VAT, Income tax or cuts to benefits, the armed forces, etc leave Westminster with more money in their coffers but none of this comes to the devolved parliaments. So there is a very real squeeze, with worse to come as NHS services are privatised in England, hopefully making savings in the NHS budget there, which will have a knock on effect under the Barnett Formula of severe cuts in the Scottish Budget for Health. There is little scope for making cuts in Scotland, where services need to be provided to geographically scattered communities. Specialised services have already been centralised as much as possible but costly local services, GPs, Midwives, air ambulances for example must be maintained in the Highlands, Islands and Borders.

If Scotland votes Yes the country will be able to meet these challenges from its own resources but in the event of a NO vote I agree that it would be necessary to change the formula in order to have a fairer distribution of wealth (& poverty) within the UK. Unfortunately, neither the Westminster Government nor any of the three main UK parties have this issue on their radar. They are not even campaigning on a 'Vote No and we'll give you more' ticket. There have been vague statements to the effect that Scotland could be granted powers to collect and keep some taxes but that would be balanced by cuts to the block grant. A classic re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic idea.

Personally, I would prefer to have a Pound Scots in my pocket, rather than either the Euro or Sterling, but I bow to the superior knowledge of Alex Salmond and John Swinney, both successful economists by profession before they came into politics. They argue that it would reduce instability for both countries, certainly during a transitional period and make life easier for businesses who would be able to continue to trade across the border without currency adjustments. Eire retained the £sterling for some time after it became independent before moving to the Irish Punt and later adopting the Euro. SNP policy changed from going straight to the Euro when it became obvious that the Euro was having big problems. Now is not the time to become voluntarily tied to the Euro, but who knows what the future will bring. If England votes to come out of Europe it might well be to Scotland's advantage to stay in. Only with Independence will we be able to make that choice for ourselves.

Granny 23

Please do not take this question as a 'dig'. I find your points interesting.

If, and I accept that it could be a big if, if Scotland voted no to Independence would you think it is time to look at the Barnett Formula if as you say Scotland has out performed the rest of the UK. Would it not be time to put every British person on an even playing field when it comes to the 'per head' question.

Also I ask you directly, why does Alex Salmond want the British Pound as his choice of coinage when it means abiding by Westminster rules and the British Treasury. Are you not better with his preferred choice of the Euro some time back.

Ana For the past 10 years Scotland's economy has out performed the rest of the UK's and the Scottish Government has managed to fund these 'benefits' from their block Grant by very prudent financial management. The free prescriptions are virtually cost neutral, once you remove all the administrative costs, etc. But the simple and obvious answer to your concern is this:

Once Independent Scotland will retain approx. 95% of the oil revenues as opposed to the 9.6 share we have now. Ind. Scotland will not have any nuclear weapons. Granted that will only save us 9.6% of the costs but as both these sums are enormous billions (and Scotland's budget is balanced at present) there will be plenty cash for existing benefits and more. You will probably be unaware of the McCrone Report, commissioned by the British Government over 40 years ago and kept buried until it was released under the 40 year rule, which states that Scotland's oil would make it one of the richest countries in the world. Successive governments have lied about the amount & value of oil ever since, while using the revenues to fund wars, tax breaks, infrastructure projects, nuclear weapons and increasingly, the national dept. Google McCrone Report for the whole sorry story.

So much misinformation being bandied about and on one hand complaints about half of the national news being devoted to the topic and on the other a complaint that not enough information was given.

Just to counter a few bits of the misinformation:

Who are the SDP? If you mean the Scottish Parliament then Yes, this is their white paper - an official government document which will be approved given the outright nationalist majority in the Parliament (SNP+Greens+Independents)

Not ex pat Scots (and those living in the rest of the UK) will only have a vote in the referendum if they are registered to vote at an address in Scotland. EG someone working in London or the Gulf, temporarily, who is registered to vote at their parent's address.

The Westminster government has refused to negotiate on any matters until there is a YES vote in the referendum. If there is a NO vote no negotiations will be required. You may notice that all statements from the UK government on these topics are hedged round with 'probably' 'it is expected' 'Experts predict' and so forth.

95% of the current OIL fields are in Scottish waters, however, after Tony Blair artificially raised the border north a lot of the North Sea GAS fields are in English waters. It has recently emerged that the UK gov. refused to grant licences for oil fields in the Firth of Clyde/Irish Sea because of the danger they would pose to the nuclear submarines making their way to and from Faslane. If Scotland were independent and therefore non-nuclear these fields would be developed and the revenue presumably shared by Scotland and NI.

As to the RBS, the Scotland bit in the name is entirely historic. RBS shares traded on the London Stock Market, it had more business in England than in Scotland and the bad debts were mainly accrued by its subsidieries in the US. If the Union is dissolved, Scotland will inherit just under 10% of the shares and the same percentage of the assets and debts of the UK. BTW Scotland would then own nearly 10% of the Bank of England (set up by a clever Scotsman, and should have been named the bank of Great Britain or UK), the Royal Mint, the tax and pension computer systems, and the BBC, to name a few. This is indisputable under international law.

And Yes, the Labour Party would lose its contingent of Scottish MPs (also all the Labour Lords) and struggle to attain a majority in the RUK Parliament. The oil still in the North sea (40 years worth at steadily rising prices) and the oil still to be exploited west of Shetland and between Scotland and Ireland, has been used as collateral for the vast international loans which the UK has racked up in recent years. If Scotland remains in the Sterling Zone then that collateral is still there to prop up Sterling to the mutual benefit of all in these islands - with out it then 'it is likely, probable, experts predict' that Sterling will collapse.

Little wonder that the Labour, Liberal and Conservative Parties are united in their Better Together campaign (internally they call it Project Fear) to keep Scotland safely in the UK.

What's 'partial independance'... sounds like 'cherry picking' to me ...

Aka it seems that Mr Salmond only wants partial independence. I'm fine with Scotland keeping the pound if we separate - but it has to be a Scottish pound.

And I'm English born and bred and I too am disappointed that I won't have a say. But that's par for the course.

Aka

An independent Scotland will no longer be British though will it. Scotland will be an Independent Country.

What I don't understand is, if the SNP feel that Westminster and the government of the UK, irrespective of which party, is so crap with money, why on earth does it want to continue to be ruled by and dictated to by the British Treasury.

It has been covered all day practically on Sky News and BBC News. Freeview 80 and 82.

It does obviously affect all of us wherever we live, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales or England. It has massive disruption potential for all of our economies!

There was nothing Alex Salmond nor the White Paper stated that made much sense, I admit the part's mentioned as obviously nobody has read the full White Paper Book on GN. It is a fact that if marks were being given out for confidence and Blue Sky Thinking Alex Salmond would score 10/10.

This to me is heart over head feelings when it comes to voting and I don't think I would like to call which way the vote will go. Very dangerous territory and I hope we all don't rue the day this vote ever took place.

Nkf but it's exactly that 'the British pound' not the English pound. I too am a Scot, born and bred, and like * Thesius* feel saddened that I won't have a say.
Jess every few years the British vote in a General Election and many of them haven't a clue what they are voting for, what the issues are, and so on

I can't help wondering how they're going to be able to continue to fund care for the elderly, university fees and prescriptions if they become independent. Something's got to give...

I don't understand how people can vote on something when there is a list of unknowns as long as my arm.
One small example - There was a Scottish culture minister talking about the impact on the BBC the other day on the radio. She had it all planned out - Scotland would collect the licence fees that currently go to the BBC and that would "improve programming". But she was adamant that she would not be depriving Scotland of East Enders. She would be buying it in. I was wondering what a much depleted BBC would be like and whether she had an inside track on whether they would be able to afford to keep making East Enders
Nothing at all has been negotiated - not currency, not defence, not national debt, not oil, not the national grid (an interesting one in its own right), not the NHS, not minor details like how the taxation system would be broken into two (do the rest of us get to keep the software system and the letter heads? )
And what, I ask, about the queen? Which side of the border would she jump?

I am Scottish, live in London and I do not think that I or other Scots who live in England, NI or Wales should be allowed to vote.

Sorry, Charleygirl, but I'm not sure I follow you...do you mean you don't think that Scots who live in other parts of the UK should be able to vote? Or that they should be able to?

I'm taking my passport to Edinburgh on Saturday on case!

I quite agree with Theseus Ariadne but I also do not think that we Scots who live here should be allowed to vote either.

Theseus, born and bred in Scotland, and of good proud Scots heritage, was saddened (and angry) to hear that ex pat Scots abroad will be able to vote in the referendum, but that Scots now living the rest of the UK will not.

I have my own opinions on all this, but do see this particular issue as very unfair, if not discriminatory.

I don't think we can exactly accuse the BBC of political bias, can we? We down here cannot be swayed by it, can't do anything, even though we are still part of one United Kingdom.

Just sent a complaint to the BBC for the fifteen minutes of the 30 minute they spent on the Scottish referendum. I felt it was very very biased with very limited time spent on any dissension to the proposals. What else can you expect from the BBC.

The proposal is that Scotland wants to keep the British pound and doesn't have an alternative plan. This is like our own mini Euro. Europe in the Euro is slowly becoming one nation ruled from Brussels. As Alistair Darling said on Radio Four this morning if Scotland keep the pound it will slowly re-integrate with the rest of Britain and we'll be back where we started!

What I have been trying to find out, up till now without success is, as the RBS is now partially owned by the UK taxpayers, will Scotland if they gain independence, have to compensate English taxpayers?