Bus passes etc.

dollie the taxman also takes enough off me with my small private pension but surely it is better to lose 20% (I assume you are not a higher rate taxpayer in which case you will probably not miss the loss of the WFA) of the £200 than to lose the whole £200 if you are deemed not 'poor enough'.

definitely not anodomini the tax man takes enough off of me as it is with my private pension!!!!

Thinking on that one anno.

Wouldn't it make sense to simply tax the WFA along with the rest of the retirement pension?

I think I am correct in saying pensions have increased by £5 as opposed to 75p not so long ago. There is also the 'triple lock' guarantee, which I believe all 3 parties have said they are in agreement with.

It is obvious bus passes are used by some and not others. Therefore some are 'getting more help' than others financially. It is obviously the case there are many pensioners who do not use their Winter Fuel Payment for it's intended purpose because they have sufficient funds to cover their bill. As with the other WFA.

I have heard all 3 parties state that WFA is in their sight after the next election.

I am of the opinion the WFA was put in place to be a vote winner at the time which unlike putting the same cost into weekly pension rates could not be taken away without the biggest voter backlash.

For the reasons I have mentioned I feel that there is a reasonable argument to be made that WFA should be based on pensioner income. I have said before on a similar thread a long time ago. There are many families trying to keep a roof over their head, working hard and paying taxes. Yes I know the mantra 'Well I paid my taxes during my lifetime and I am entitled to it'. What I think is so are our children and to me they need as much if not more help than pensioners who have an incomes exceeding theirs.

Is it not fair to say that our taxes pay for many income support based reasons. I cannot differentiate between paying some pensioners housing allowance, paying for council tax,paying for home help etc. ALL of which are 'means tested' and paying WFA on the same basis. Is it not about helping those less well off.

Mollie , you are quite right in what you say.

The WFA, like the £10 Christmas bonus payment, was introduced as a way of making pensioners happy and avoiding an actual increase in pensions. It has always been a precarious allowance since it can be taken away without too much trouble. A fair permanent increase in pensions ought to make the WFA unnecessary. I've read the Mumsnet thread. I've paid taxes, local and national, and NI all my life. I'm still paying tax and so are my DH and my 100 year old mother. Those taxes, among other things, go to support those who aren't in a position to earn enough to keep themselves. That's the way it works. Why it should suddenly come as a shock to some younger people that they might be paying so that others benefit, I cannot imagine!

mamie of course I agree that someone on 50K pa (or should I say a household as WFA is paid per household) should not need the 'freebies' and I would include the bus pass in that - I remember seeing Jon Snow showing off his freedom pass on channel 4 news a year or so ago - he does not need it but the rural dweller who is unable to drive and relies on one daily bus to get to visit relatives or the Dr is a different kettle of fish - so I would say it is fairer to abolish the bus pass/freedom pass and have a pensioners rate for travel outside rush hours or alternatively something like the senior railcard.
the basic state pension chould be raised by say £5 a week to cover the loss of WFA and as the state pension is taxable for tax payers this would be fairer all round.
what worries me is there is talk of restricting the freebies to those on pension credit. who already get a load of freebies anyway. there are those of us who contributed to SERPs, paid into a private pension and although we are above the pension credit level income-wise we are far from 'rich'
I also wish someone would correct a common misconception that we don't have to pay for a TV licence - that is only the over 75s !

There are some ridiculous generalisations in that Mumsnet thread, but there are also some valid points I think. Do people really think it is important to protect WFA for people with substantial pension income (say over £50k pa) in straightened times? Really?
I would lump WFA into the normal state pension, where it would be reclaimed via the tax system and avoid means testing. I would keep bus passes for those that can use them because it will help keep cars off the roads and help maintain the public transport system. Not sure about prescription charges. I do think it is reasonable to debate these things and be open to change though.

nonu - then that is sad and there is abrasive which may be acceptable and bigoted (which is not according to them).
when I was young/middle-aged there was respect for the older generation which sadly seems to have been lost. they should all remember they too will some day be old and 'need' a bit more help.

I think Mumsnet is known for the abrasive stance they usually take on life !

I know mumsnet is a sister site but I think this thread is relevant to how we (or at least pensioners) are viewed based on personal experience of many posters there. How is it possible to so deride an entire generation - no-one ever thinks it is fair or reasonable to castigate and deride all young people so why is it acceptable to do this to a group of people of a certain age.
it seems to me that the problem is there are TOO many of us (not our fault ) and therefore any 'freebies' given us add up to a large sum.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1958431-To-think-the-only-reason-theyre-protecting-pensions-is-to-buy-votes?

Thank you ann. It is one of those things that I keep meaning to post about, but haven't. Unfortunately it is something that I do struggle with. I thought that when Jack died she might have had a different attitude, but she didn't.

Well I'm sorry about that and send you my apologies and also sympathy. I havn't read any posts of yours referring to that very sad situation. I just hope you are at peace with it.

annsixty not out of line at all, but unfortunately she hasn't spoken to me for years! But that, as they say, is another story.

Grannyknot I completely see your point, and I expect that most people receiving it use it for what is needed at the time.

phoenix surely the couple with the trip to Australia, uses their WFA to pay their winter fuel, which means that frees up the money that they would have needed for heating - for a trip to Australia? That's what I would think anyway

Or put another way, when my WFA comes in, I don't think "Oh, I better immediately pay that to the energy company"...

Am I being out of line here to suggest that your mother "donates" her WFA to you this year so that you can buy some oil? I believe in some circumstances charity begins at home.

I do realise that for many people it is a real life line, I wasn't for one moment suggesting that it is not needed.

phoenix I hear what you are saying but for every anecdotal evidence of the WFP being used frivolously there are many more stories of it being used as it should - to supplement the astronomical cost of heating particularly for those old (thin blood etc) and in all day as they find it difficult to get out and about. I am sitting typing on 'tinternet with 4 layers on, central heating not on, neither is the woodburning stove. I usually spend the evening wrapped in a heated throw (very good purchase - about £40 on Amazon) and go to bed with a hot water bottle and thick duvet.
my heating an utility costs - oil, logs and electricity is about £900 per year. I use the winter fuel payment to help pay for this.

A couple I know use their WFA to help fund their yearly trips to Australia, my mother donates hers to charity.

In the meantime, for the last 6 weeks I haven't been able to turn my heating on as we have run out of oil and cannot afford to order any.

I will also be working ( if I can get a job) until I am 66 before I get any pension.

perhaps they are slowly phasing them out over the next 3 years..

mine also expires in 2017 - is this significant?
actually if they added £10 to the basic state pension and dispensed with winter fuel payments, bus passes and the christmas box (did the same for the other benefit groups that receive the so-called 'freebies') this would not adversely affect anyone except those lucky pensioners who have good public transport. but it would at least shut up some of the 'boomer bashers' there are tarring us all as 'selfish rich and to be despised because we don't understand how hard it is for the young'. (read mumsnet AIBU if you doubt how the younger generation see us)
I do remember what it was to be younger and bringing up a son on my own supporting us through going out to work full time.

Our age group is more likely to vote than our children and grandchildren. They should bear that in mind! Thanks for the link, Elegran

I say again. Labour have said they will be seriously looking at bus passes etc. Lib Dems are saying they are seriously looking at it.

You are on a hide to nowhere if you think it is a possible Conservative policy only.

I think all of them will means test or do away with them after the next election.

Should make it clear that he is making plans for after the next general election.