In praise of Iain Duncan Smith's Welfare Reforms

Sorry, why is it nit-picking?
Rose said he was the richest; I am just showing he isn't and that others are just as hypocritical as he is. I've never voted for him, unlike some tories and liberals that I know.
He's become rich by selling his knowledge, and conning other rich people. He was always good at that, but then so are Jeremy Hunt and Grant Shapps. Cameron is the biggest hypocrit when you consider his dad made his money by charging people for setting up offshore accounts for them.

Nit-picking now, durhamjen. Blair may not be the richest, technically, but he's certainly become rich by being the biggest hypocrite of all time.

Tony Blair was not, and is still not, the richest politician of them all, rose. He is 14th, with 3 other Labour politicians ahead of him, who are all Lords.
The rest are Torys, five of them in the cabinet.

I think you are being a bit silly, rose, to suggest that people who have money should not send their children to state schools if they can afford to go private. Personally, I think that private/public schools should be done away with, along with free schools that take money away from the state schools. If everybody had to send their children to state schools, the whole system would be better.

A lot of the rot started under New Labour. It was Peter Mandelson who said they were 'relaxed about people getting filthy rich'. And, by golly, they certainly did! Bankers' bonuses, PFIs, expensive wars, you name it, and cronyism was rife under the richest warmongering bastard of all, Tony Blair. So I can understand why you thought they were not for you, DJ.

But Old Labour had made such a mess of everything that even my dear Dad, a staunch Party member, resigned in disgust after much deliberation.

My MIL always said that after a Labour government the country needed two terms of Conservative government to put it back on its feet and redeem the mess Labour left behind.

My father was a Victorian and my MIL was born in the early 1900s so both had seen a lot of change and were articulate, thinking people although not University educated.

That is another question: should people who can well afford private education for their offspring take up state school places in our overcrowded schools? There is no reason they should not of course, as they pay their taxes like anyone else, (presumably?) but when resources are stretched would it be reasonable to expect them to use their considerable wealth and opt out?

Of course, they can also afford to live in the 'best' areas and attend 'better' state schools rather than actual 'bog-standard comprehensives' (quote).

Is the fact that HH went to York University (after St Paul's) supposed to make her more like the rest of us? I think not. It is one of the Russell group and you make it sound like a 'bog-standard' poly, DJ!

I try to be open-minded and cannot stand party dogma.

I do not come from a mining, working class background, POGS, and I never said I did. Perhaps you ought to read more carefully. I said that MPs who represent this area do.

Miliband went to comprehensive school, then Oxford and the LSE. Chuka Umunna went to a state primary school, Manchester University and then got an MA at Nottingham. Harriet Harman went to York University. The Benns are well known for going to state schools. So no, they are not all from the same background, which is what you imply.

I do not have selective amnesia as far as Labour are concerned. I have never voted for Tony Blair's labour party, much to the disgust of many of my family, as it really wasn't socialist. However, I object to people who will condemn the Labour party while not seeing what the Tories are doing to this country and to our NHS, selling it to their cronies.

My one granddad was a barber and the other a foundry man.
My father only went to grammar school because he pased the entrance exam. He then wasn't allowed to go as my grandparents couldn't afford the school cap, it was bought for him by the headmaster.
He got a scholarship to Birmingham university and qualified as Dr. He had to buy his general practice after his discharge from the army and we were very poor.
My mothers father left school at 14 and learned foundry casting. He worked in a foundry until his retirement. He ended up as foreman and lecturer at college on foundry techniques. My mother trained as an infants teacher.
Therefore I can hardly say I come from a posh background!
I have and will vote Tory

DJ

I can keep going around in a circle with you all night.

You asked me why I thought the 'Labour Party' had the edge on hypocrisy. So I answered your ruddy question.

I did not say it was a myth Labour built schools and hospitals. I implied it was a myth they worked wonders and tried to point out we are still paying handsomely for having PFI contracts and they have created some serious issues which will manifest for years but Labour brush that fact under the carpet.

You are doing an Ivanhoe and having selective amnesia when it comes to Labour. The Bullingdon Club is a total red herring that Labour cling on to try and differentiate themselves from the Tories. It's a spin doctors wet dream for PR. Labour MP's and front benches have a lot of very wealthy, public school, good social /family connections yet they want the public to believe they are working class. Rubbish.

I have no idea why you hark on about your coming from a mining, working class background. It has little relevance to me. My neighbour was a pit deputy and my other neighbour recently lost his job at Dawmill Colliery, so what???

If you think all Tories are toffs does that mean I have to think all Labour supporters are flat cap and whippet brigade. That belongs in the dark ages or to those who have practically been politically brain washed.

falseeconomy.org.uk/blog/self-employment-accounts-for-44-of-the-net-rise-in-employment-since-mid-201

Here's the lie about unemployment in Tory world.

The Labour party did build new schools and hospitals. It's not a myth. PFI became a problem with the privatisation of the NHS and the worldwide downturn in the economy.

Where do you see the hypocrisy in the Tory party, as you say it does not belong to any one political party, but only give examples of where you see Labour hypocrisy?

I've said on a different thread that the MPs from this area came from a mining or working background, not from a toff's background. How many Labour front benchers were in the Bullingdon club?

DJ

Because that's what I find.

I can't stand the likes of Ed Balls, Miliband, Chuka Umuna, Harriet Harmen, the Benns etc. calling the Tories posh boys and rich toffs when they are from the same stable. It is class ware fare and hypocrisy.

I can't stand Labour claiming to be the best thing since sliced bread concerning the NHS. My mother died at George Elliot Hospital which under Labour was in the top 10 of the worst hospitals. I would like Andy Burnham to dare talk to me. He is a hypocrite.

I think Labour should stop peddling the myth they did wonders in building new schools and hospitals. The fact the PFI schemes are now causing closures and will take years to pay off has been shoved under the carpet.

Labour bang on about unemployment, it is now lower than when they were in power but labour maintain the myth it is higher 'under this government'.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

I am not stupid enough to know hypocrisy does not belong to any one political party but, as with this post, I was extending the courtesy of responding to a poster who asked me a direct question.

POGS, how can you say that Labour have the edge on hypocrisy?
NHS?
Tax cuts for the rich?
All in it together?

I typed SOH!

The son in Miami is definitely nonexistent. The staff are the rudest least helpful I've ever met. (Heathrow was just inefficient, not deliberately rude and unhelpful )

Elegran

I think the difference is you wear it tongue in cheek. Or are you a secret narcissist.

I have that same T-shirt. POGS It is good for wearing to airports, though I don't think I would risk it at New York, where the sense of humour threshold is higher.

I am obliged to those who have taken my posts well.

Ivan I am shocked at your video. I would have thought you would be happy with overseas aid and I think the Olympics were a great success.

I have to tell you that your message was clear and precise and to my utter astonishment not at all partisan nor displaying the hatred you show when posting on GN. I was interested in what you had to say.

In response to your video I will tell you of my father's circumstances up to his death last June. H e had a pension of £140 a week. He received Pension Credit and Attendance Allowance which covered all of his costs for home care from Social Services and paid his bills comfortably. He had the usual Winter Fuel Allowance, his council tax paid and of course prescriptions free, glasses free and dentist free. He was a perfect gentleman who never complained and was looked after very well by the state and family. His care from his doctors. Was second to none and the NHS didn't give up on him at the age of 94 and they fitted a pace maker to give him hope of an extended life. Not bad hey! He did own his own home but I believe rent would have been paid had he lived in rental accommodation.

I think it might be a different kettle of fish if you have savings over £23.000.00 as you will not receive pension credit but there has to be a cut off point somewhere, that is a debate able point in question of that I am aware.

I liked your t.shirt by the way which said 'I have nothing to declare except my genious'.

Ivanhoe why do you go on reoeating yourself, yet won't answer straight questions? We don't live in splendid isolation as Elegran points out. You can't solve a single problem by ignoring all 99% of other relevant factors.

If we don't make wealth, there is nothing to distribute. It needs BOTH not either/or.

Elegran. Britain needs to re- distribute its wealth fairly. We also need to spend much more of our GNP on our vital services, including State pensions.

If Im wearing out of date blinkers, yours are positively, antiquated.

I have come back to this thread after being away from it most of the day.

Replying to Ivanhoes question "Elegran, The Labour party was founded to sticks up for the exploited masses of working class people. What's your problem with that ?"

I have no problem with it. My point was that doing all of that involves much wider issues than just blasting all policies from other parties, insulting all those who have a different opinion on the details of how to help eliminate poverty and get an econmomy that generates the money to spend on achieving those aims, and encouraging class warfare.

I repeat what I have said earlier, that those who wish to see more prosperity for the most disadvantaged people in society need to study the worldwide financial and social situation and mak the right decisions for the whole country. That is not best done while wearing out-of-date blinkers.

He says he's not on the other (Tory's (sic)) thread mcem. Must have changed his mind. I'm getting dizzy here

Got it now. Ivanhoe is a prospective parliamentary candidate for Totnes. Standing as an independent. Social housing for young people and better pensions for retired folks. So sorry I don't live in Totnes.

POGS what an excellent & well thought out post. I too am puzzled about the reasons behind Ivanhoe's posts, it seems ( not ) strange that these diatribes appear days from the local & European elections.

POGS Excellent post. Thank you.