divert foreign aid to flood-hit British families

Ok! I know we didn't "invent" it. I was referring specifically to the African/Caribbean slave trading in which "we" were cruelly involved up to our necks.

Not to mention the other awful atrocities perpetrated by the Great British Empire.

Western European colonisation has contributed to a lot of exploitation and plunder of their former colonies which has probably not helped their economic woes.

Added to that these poorest countries tend to be in areas of the world worst affected by climate extremes of droughts or floods and hurricanes which have not been conducive to having good economies.

IMO the UK and other such nations do have some moral duty towards assisting these former colonies with aid.

djen, slavery existed in Africa before "the western world" got involved. And it was "the western world" that campaigned to abolish slavery. "The western world" is not universally bad is all I'm saying.

PS I lived in Hull when I was a child.

What has Hull got to do with it? (just by the way) ??

I agree with nelliem and others who say we have a moral duty to help people in less fortunate positions than ourselves. I'm surprised, though, that anyone feels this needs saying. We have a moral duty to help others. Full stop.

However, we don't have a moral duty to carry the guilt of past generations on our shoulders. Our duty is to sort out problems some of which may be the result of wrong or mistaken actions in the past, including but not exclusively, those caused by colonialism.

And I don't think it does any harm to remember that not all colonialism was a bad thing.

Hull - maybe William Wilberforce?

I agree with you ThatBags. Wallowing in guilt is not constructive but we should never forget what happened.

Thanks, tricia. I hadn't realised he was from Hull.

... thinking about slavery... in Rome and Greece ... not to mention Roman Britain... and about slavery being abolished in "the western world" and a few other places because ideas in "the western world" were more advanced about slavery by then.

Progress to be proud of..

Just saying

Because I'm tired of hearing about how awful "the western world" is and how the ills of so much of the rest of the world are "our fault". Some of them, yes, but by no means all, and "the western world" has done and is doing a lot of good in a lot of countries.

Think for a moment about the origins of the world's most famous historical philanthropists.

I am surprised you did not know that Wilberforce was the MP for Hull if you actually lived there as a child, Thatbags. Wilberforce Monument, Wilberforce School, Wilberforce Museum.
The world's most famous historical philanthropists were usually Quakers.

The western world still encourages slavery in the form of child labour to produce cheap consumer goods for the richer countries. Just because these children live in China and India does not absolve the west from its part in creating the conditions for the manufacture of cheap clothes, etc.

Nothing to do with the laws in those countries then?

I didn't learn about Wilberforce and his anti-slavery work when I was a primary school kid and when I did learn about him (in Lancashire by then) the fact that he was from Hull was not mentioned because it wasn't really relevant to the slavery issue. It still isn't. I shall look up the dates of the inaugurations of those Wilberforce things.

Quakers were/are part of "the western world" – you know, the good side of it that I keep mentioning.

Blimey Bags where haven't you lived?

galen,

Yes, Djen, really. Are you aware of how impertinent your tone is in apparently doubting this?

galen, nowhere south of Oxford unless you count the southern part of Thailand.

Oh! hang on! DH had a pad in Romsey for a while and I did visit him there while I was working in Oxford. Can't really say I lived there though.

durhamjen It is the society in these countries that put the children into the sweatshops, not the Brits. Okay, we should encourage them not to do this, but what is the alternative? Take away the trade and let them eat worms?
I can assure you that not everyone in these countries was against colonisation, few areas were colonised by war, many were colonised through trade agreement with the ruling classes within these countries. The trade created wealth both for the colonials and for the countries. We Brits built schools, universities, hospitals, roads, railways, ports etc. for. As you know many of our doctors and nurses now come from former colonies who, because of the influence of the Brits are now educated probably better than we are now because they have retained many of the practices embedded by the Brits.

It is a fact that Arab slave traders crossed Africa from East to West, taking slaves from all tribes and, on the way, converted Africans to Islam. Islam still permits the taking of slaves. It may not be politically correct to expand on this. This article puts the historical context concisely and there are other items on the web which confirm this. When I lived for five years in Kenya, it was well known that a number of Africans, especially from the tribes in the East of the country, were lighter skinned because Arab traders had relationships with African women.

Of course the Brits put the children in sweat shops. If they didn't buy "designer' trainers and tee shirts or cheap tat from Primark and similar shops, it wouldn't happen.

True.

What's the alternative though? Stop buying the goods that provide them with some money even if it's nowhere near enough? Will the people who employ them in sweat shops make sure they have food on the table even though there is no work for them?

Walks into the thread, looks around............. and backs casually out again humming a little tune, off to find a happier subject.Gets to the door and shouts 'never read The Daily Mail'! before running off.

We can't kid ourselves we buy from Primark and the like to put food in front of those workers. We do it to save ourselves money. No, we should only buy from retailers we are sure provide decent conditions. It's wrong to support child labour.

I really do not understand why some feel it necessary for Brits to take on the sins of the rest of the world.

It is not good for children to be working, however this is the culture into which millions are born. Our current perception of childhood is very different to that of these countries who see children as earners from a very young age. Sometimes the children are the only breadwinners within a family. It is not that long ago that child labour was commonplace in UK and the move to change had to come from within, just as we had to come to the recognition that slavery was a sin against humanity.

So, because some want to impose their own moral indignation upon a culture that they may only have a superficial concept of, they would withdraw trade and the opportunity of earning from that society and condem it to abject poverty.

Through trade, income is generated, one would hope that tax would be collected on this income which would be invested in infrastructure and education and the adults if these countries will eventually recognise that their children deserve a childhood.

If we don't shun the bad boys, they will never change. We need to encourage the good.

Do you really think it is ok for a, say, ten year old to work in a sweatshop for twelve hours a day, day in, day out? Really?

Actually, Joelsnan, it's necessary for Brits to take on the sins of the world because quite often we were the sinners.
And I buy fairtrade whenever it's available. It costs more, yes, but I feel the need to give something back for the sins of my forebears. I do not know if any of them were really bad, but I know some of them were in the British Army at the time of the Raj, and it was not very pleasant then for indigenous Indians. Oh, and I knew quite a few people from Asia and the West Indies, who came over here to work in our hospitals. My parents rented rooms out to them when I was at school. Otherwise they would not have been able to afford the mortgage.

William Wilberforce at times used to give money for the relief of poverty, as he felt guilty for what he had - and he was quite wealthy, otherwise he would not have been an MP.

I went to school in Hull, Thatbags, and we went to the Wilberforce Museum when I was in primary school. I wasn't suggesting you were lying, just that it's difficult to miss a monument that size near Queen's Gardens. It was built in 1834, by public subscription, and Wilberforce House was turned into a museum in the early 1900s. Queen's Dock had been regularly used to trade slaves at auction marts until Wilberforce put a stop to it. It was filled in and made into Queen's Gardens before I was born.

Being from Hull, I am proud of my association with the abolition of slavery. It's a long time since I've been called impertinent. Makes me feel quite young, but I doubt that was your intention.