FGM prosecutions

Don't accuse me of silliness Jingle. Your response on this matter a few months ago was intemperate. It's always a good idea to inform oneself of the issues and background of any matter before posting a response based on a gut feeling.

Read this

http://nofgoz.com/2014/02/25/no-fgm-australia-interview-with-linda-wiel-curiel-french-prosecutor-the-legal-and-child-protection-response-to-prevention-of-fgm/

I'm not accusing you of silliness. Just that particular post. And the suggestion.

The French do have a larger Muslim population than we do. Nevertheless, to examine all little girls for this, Muslim or non-Muslim, is ridiculous.

I abhor fgm as much as the next person, but I don't think traumatizing our children can be the way forward.

I'm glad about the proposed prosecutions, about time. Obstetricians and midwifes much have come across women who have had it done to them. I'm wondering, because it's never been discussed before, how those who have already undergone these awful procedures can be helped to deal with all the problems they would experience as I imagine they live in constant pain it's just so cruel and I gather that older female relatives are often complicit in inflicting this on their own children and grandchildren.

Typo error should be midwives not midwifes.

I believe the French examine all children routinely anyway, it identifies other possible problems as well. Little boys have their genitals examined in this country and I think, as I said, if it were a usual practice with girls, it wouldn't be a big deal. And I think it is intended, not to find girls who have been mutilated but to prevent them being mutilated.

Does anyone know what the consequences would be for women living in societies where 'cutting' is considered to be desirable, even essential, not to have undergone the procedure?

Nellie great minds....(or something of the kind)

I would love to know more about the French system. What worries me (amongst other things) is when and how often these examinations would need to be done. The thought of it being done once, at puberty is bad enough, but the thought of it being done annually I find very difficult to accept, and surely it would need to be done more than once or FGM would simply be postponed until the people responsible knew the child had already been examined. The other thing that worries me is what would happen if a child simply refused to be examined (as happens in cases where sexual abuse is suspected - and might be likely with a girl who had been subject to FGM). It is unthinkable to me that a child would be forced to undergo
an examination against their will. The practicalities of it are too horrific to contemplate.

Absolutely, nightowl.

Agree absolutely.

If you read the link I posted above Nightowl, it answers some, if not all, of the points you raise.

We must have some idea of the extent of female mutilation in this country as it must be apparent when the woman gives birth? Or has a smear test [although they probably aren't allowed to have smear tests [?]].

The link you gave comes up as "Sorry, the website nofgoz.com cannot be found" on my computer, MiceElf.

I can't get it to work MiceElf please can someone blue it?

What about when a parent refuses permission for the child to be examined in this way. Some undoubtedly would. Would it be made compulsory?

Next step nazism?

Neither of my grandsons have had their genitals examined . Why would that be done?

The hydrocele that my younger grandson had, was found by his mum.

To look for undescended testicles, I believe jingl.

I am really pleased to see that at last cases are being brought against those who seek/carry out FGM. Hopefully it will help to prevent girls from undergoing this dreadful practice.

Do you think if we had still got the old school medicals in place it would be easier to examine children routinely and it not thought an 'intrusion of privacy'?

Has society created an over-sensitivity to legitimate medical examinations because euphamisms such as 'private parts' are used & children no longer strip off (e.g.on beaches) to change but hide coyly in towels and tents etc etc
Having been to a boarding school where we all stripped off and wandered about starkers we accepted bodies naturally came in different shapes and sizes! Nowadays that is less common and so children are more self- conscious. I can't decide if that is a good or bad thing!

Surely that's babies Lillygran. At the six week check-up.

nofgmoz.com/2014/02/25/no-fgm-australia-interview-with-linda-weil-curiel-french-prosecutor-the-legal-and-child-protection-response-to-prevention-of-fgm/

I think this is the link, MiceElf

www.ucl.ac.uk/laws/current/graduate/llm-society/docs/Final%20submission%20to%20the%20Home%20Affairs%20Committee%20-%20FGM%20Inquiry.pdf

This explains the French system, as well as suggesting a way forward in the UK. It seems children are examined regularly up to the age of six, and examination is necessary to claim welfare benefits. One of the worries is that parents will simply postpone the procedure until after the age of six. I believe children are also examined before they leave the country and on their return.

I also read in another link (which I can't find now) that the problem in the UK is not so much the difficulty of identifying victims or potential victims, but the apparent reluctance of the CPS to bring prosecutions. I will see if I can find where I read that.

Thanks jane I'll read that as well now.

penstemonn It would be practically invasive! The child would have to be touched there. Just so wrong in so many ways.

"examination is necessary to claim welfare benefits."

That is horrific! Would not be well received in this country.

Let's not be emotive and bring "Nazism" into it. I think we all agree that physical examination has its own difficulties and ethical issues, however, if we are talking about the lesser of 2 evils, unless someone comes up with a better idea - what is to be done?
And as for imposng "Western values" on another culture, that is a debatable area. We, I think, agree that we find some practices barbaric and a breach of human rights. To what extent one can go into another country and impose one's own values - even with the best intentions - is open to discussion. But as a starting point I would maintain that people living in this country are subject to our laws - does that make me sound like UKIP supporter? I hope not, because where laws exist to protect the vulnerable , it should not be possible to exempt certain sections of the population.
(And don't get me started on Muslims selling/not selling alcohol at supermarket check outs, forced marriage or Sharia law!)

From the nofgmoz article - "In France, children are examined up until the age of 6 years." Yet I have read elsewhere that FGM can be carried out at any age from around 4 onwards, although usually before 10.

As someone else said earlier in this thread, any parent determined to inflict this practice on their daughter would just wait until after she was 6.