The long arm of the Justice Minister

petallus, there is a place for punishment. But maybe taking away someone's freedom is enough.

My son-in-law taught in prisons for a while.

That is by the by of nothing at all.

Eleothan - I wasn't saying that's what it is at the moment. I doubt that it is. Was just saying that is what it shouldn't be.

Anyway, I have slightly revised my feelings on the matter, since posting yesterday evening. Perhaps I was a bit harsh. Was in the throws of low blood sugar at the time of posting. I guess if I was locked up I would want my own books in there with me.

It's very 'Old Testament' going on about punishment.

I prefer the New Testament myself.

jingle Post at 15.45 "Prison is meant to be a punishment, not a put-your-feet-up-and-have-a-nice-rest scheme".

Who said it is a put-your-feet-up etc. I did n't.

I don't subscribe to the view that prison is a "put your feet up and have a nice rest" sort of experience and teachers that I've known who worked in prisons did not think so either. Criminals are still human beings and it should be borne in mind that significant numbers have been found to suffer from mental illness, to have learning difficulties, to have been brought up in care, etc. etc.

It's said - but I don't know how true it is -that one of the main ways in which drugs and prohibited items get into prison is through corrupt prison personnel.

On the face of it, this ruling seems spiteful but is it possible that there is a genuine reason for it? Could books be used as a way of sending messages? If so, it would be very time-consuming for prison staff to check every page of every book.

Seems to me it's a scheme to encourage prisoners to engage in work, thereby earning concessions, and to stay out of trouble by keeping to prison rules. Sounds alright to me, so long as the books necessary for study really are available.

Birthday cards are allowed, Jingle but not hand made ones. Would be helpful to know what led to this decision. It's easy to speculate about drugs being smuggled in, or hidden messages being sent, but there are plenty of other ways to do that.

So Frances Crook's article is inflammatory rubbish, in fact.

That's what i thought!

Penstemmon yes, whatever books that are needed can be obtained via the prison. Any ridiculously expensive books can be borrowed through the county library, or if a relative wants to buy an expensive book for the prisoner, they can send the money in and it can be ordered. The ruling about parcels is intended to marry up with the regime and the status of the prisoner. If they have earned privileges through good behaviour (enhanced status) certain items are allowed, otherwise they are refused at the gate or will be placed into the prisoner's belongings until release. There is no intention to deprive reading opportunities for prisoners.

I think it's birthday cards in general that are not allowed. Does seem hard not to allow a child's handmade one though.

"What has happened is that we have introduced consistency across the estate."

Prison is primarily for punishment.

If books are available from the library then as long as the library, like outside libraries, can arrange for books on request I don't see a problem.

Not sure why a letter or child's handmade card is not permitted as long as it goes through usual checks. Sadly drugs etc can be concealed in all kinds of things.

If particular books are required for study /training purposes then these should be supplied by the prison.

There are systems in prison to earn rewards presumably books could be included in this.

I can see that it might take time to ensure nothing inappropriate is included in a book.

I cannot get too upset about this but am prepared to hear points of view.

Women's personal hygiene /sanitary protection is entirely different and should be freely available.

Chris Grayling's response to Frances Crook's comments. None of the parties involved seem to be able to set out their views so we can gauge what is actually happening where books might be scarcer in certain prisons. I'd be interested to know how many books were actually being posted in to prisoners before the ruling about parcels (books being one example of what might get posted in).

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2014/03/24/comment-the-ban-on-sending-prisoners-books-is-part-of-my-reh

I don't see how that information is relevant. We are talking about books not being allowed to be sent in by friends and relatives. Not comparing which prisons have the better libraries.

I'm glad to hear it whenim64. Once upon a time it was different. Definitely a change for the better.

absent the prison service standards for women talk about dignity and privacy, free access to sanitary items and the means to manage pain. Prisoners should be able to choose what sort of pads or tampons they want to use, have access to daily baths and showers, and fresh bedding if it is soiled before the routine weekly change. If rules change, it would be to improve them. Supplies of sanitary items are kept on wings and dormitories, but any woman in segregation would need to request what she needs if she can't walk freely beyond a cell.

Out of curiosity when, have they changed the rules about the limited amount of sanitary protection that women prisoners used to be allowed?

I'm saying that someone is generalising from specific problems in specific prisons, and making sweeping assumptions that make no sense at all.

(Not questioning your 'insider' knowledge at all, just wondering how she's getting away with claiming that her version is the truth, if it isn't.)

Are you saying that the Frances Crook article is incorrect, when?

Here's some (a lot) information about the regime in a women's prison. Styal is the local one I know best, but I have visited all of them and know they don't always maintain standards. Some women complain of their own clothes disappearing, or being issued with clothes that don't fit when more supplies are requested. Prisons do stock new clothing to issue to prisoners who need them. Most women wear their own personal choice of underwear and clothing. They should have access to fresh clothes and underwear every day, and there are laundry rooms available in each dormitory or house.

If you explore this site, you'll see a typical latest book list for the library, additional to educational resources and the massive stock that the library holds.

www.insidetime.org/info-regimes2.asp?nameofprison=HMP_STYAL

I am a bit puzzled by this. I can understand there being some vetting of books, e.g. nothing of a paedophile nature, or extolling terrorism. But a lot of prisoners are on courses and need reading material - it is part of their rehab. And the books would need to be checked to be sure nothing was being smuggled in. There has to be balance between rehab and punishment, but banning books seems odd. Presumably prisons have libraries, but there must be occasions when particular books are wanted.