Our boy Jeremy again

I agree with your post too, eloethan. However, there is an argument (not mine but one I had heard elsewhere) that suggests that it is racist for white people to be what the argument calls "so precious" about non-white people's feelings. I know that sounds bad, so let me explain. Earlier in this thread, if I remember correctly, someone mentioned terms that are used in Australia and which the people to whom or of whom they are used just laugh off. They do not take offence. White people also harbour a lot of guilt (rightly or wrongly isn't the issue here, simply that they do) about past imperialism and colonialism and they take quite a lot of flak because of it. They take it on the chin, presumably because they think they deserve it.

The argument against 'preciousness' towards people who would describe themselves as something other than white is that it is racist of white people to think that non-white people can't take non-offensive terms or characteristic descriptions (in the 'white' world, something such as blue-eyed blondie, swarthy brunette, or red-haired to describe a group of people) in their stride. This, the argument goes, is racist because it implies that non-white people are not as strong as white people so we, the superior ones, have to treat them with more care, including how we talk or describe.

It's very difficult to put this argument into words without saying something – a word or expression – that is frowned upon as racist or somehow beyond the pale, so I apologise in advance if I have done that. I don't even know if I'm allowed to use the expression "non-white people". What is the proper expression nowadays? It's not that I need one most of the time – people are just people – but one does sometimes need descriptive expressions when talking about physical group characteristics of people from various parts of the planet.

It seems to me that it is getting more and more difficult to even talk about the problems caused by racism.

Just for the record, my own view is that there is one and only one human race but that for geographical and cultural reasons various groups of us have evolved different physical characteristics. I feel we (all of us) should be able to mention those characteristics descriptively without any negative connotations being assumed.

I'll stop now. It's tricky. I hope at least someone understands where I'm coming from.

jess, where did I say it's unfair to catch people speeding, or even imply it?

"MrB claims that the Home Office commissioned three studies in 1990s which, according to his memory, found that 3-7% of road accidents in the UK were caused by excessive speed."

Because of the above. Firstly it's hearsay. Secondly it's inaccurate I suggest. If 400 people a year are killed by people exceeding speed limits and you suggest that's about 3-7% then than suggests there are approx 5,5000 and 12,000 deaths a year on UK roads.

It appears to me, jess, that you are so focussed on hating Clarkson and in thinking I'm a twit for finding him funny on occasion that you simply aren't reading what I've actually said. That's fine. You don't have to. But it does mean you shouldn't make assumptions or say anything about my position on matters such as speeding.

Speed Kills!
Just looking at the number of road accidents and speed is irrelevant. Many of the road accident statistics are of the gentle bumps in car parks variety.

But the higher the speed the more damage is done to the victims of any accident.

Which is why the Peak District has so many 50mph areas as far as the most dangerous roads go, The A537 Macclesfield to Buxton road still has the top position. That is the "Cat and Fiddle" road. The A537 joins The A54 Congleton to Buxton road on top of the moors and that road has a lot of serious accident as well. These roads are beloved of bikers. I suspect the emergency services are tired of scraping up bodies off these roads.

www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/13/speed-limits-reduce-number-road-deaths

"the relationship between speed and road accidents has been studied extensively and is very clear: the higher the speed, the greater the probability of a crash and the severity of the crashes.

think.direct.gov.uk/speed.html

Our posts crossed Bags

I think several of us were lead to believe your stance in speeding was something to do with the quote above.

Yes, aka, you are correct. MrB was at pains to make the same point about hearsay and his memory. I was merely conversing about the subject and putting a different point of view that is held by some people. I did not say it was my opinion, or his for that matter.

I too have heard that argument about racist language Bags and dismissed it as racist twaddle. I know it's not your view as you point out so am at a loss as to why to give it so much credence and try to explain it at such length.

Again Bags re the speeding...then why bother to use spurious data? At least you have just put the record straight so thanks.

Which quote above?

I was getting the impression that Clarkson is dismissed without people really knowing what he's saying or why. No-one has to watch his programme or to think it's funny, but those who do enjoy it enjoy it for its craziness not because they think the mad things Clarkson says should have any political weight.

People dismiss the car science and technology that the programme covers. They dismiss the research that goes into their often wacky test of vehicles. And they shriek about his deliberate outrageousness as if he were the devil incarnate instead of just a bloke doing a very popular show and playing to the crowd.

He's not the sort of person one would describe as an underdog (!!!) so I guess I'm just as tired of the snarling and growling about him as the snarlers and growlers are of him and his big mouth.

Plus I like a meaty discussion.

I think I've argued enough on GN for those of you who are arguing back the most to know that I often play devil's advocate purely for the hell of it.

Re your racist twaddle remark, aka. Why is it racist twaddle? The argument does appear to have a puzzling point. And the people I know who have made the argument are not racists, not in the least.

I think Aka posted on another thread that she didn't always agree with a particular poster, but did on that occasion.
We don't' always agree either Aka, but often we do. This is one of those occasions. I'm completely with your comment about racist twaddle.

I suppose if you are a white person in Australia, for example, it's relatively easy to laugh off insulting and derogatory remarks because white people in Australia have never been part of an oppressed group. Very different if you are a black person anywhere in the world.

I don't think it's 'precious' of white people to be offended on behalf of black people. As women we are used to hearing sexist remarks every day of our lives. Sometimes we challenge them, often we don't (or can't if they are in the media or overheard elsewhere). If I heard a man challenge such attitudes, I wouldn't feel that he was being 'precious' since the remark didn't apply to him, or that he was treating me as part of a 'weaker group' unable to withstand such generalisations. I would think he was a decent person who recognised that sexism is everyone's business, just as racism is.

X posts night owl - so good to see your comments

That is a very good reply, nightowl. Thank you.

Yes I would love it if a man took up the sexism issue with another man now and again. Gets tiring.

Well said nightowl.

Jess, in my experience living and having worked in a border town I find some Welsh can be fairly unpleasant about the English!

Nellie, we were in that area recently and kept strictly to the speed limits. DH pondered why they were enforced on such straight, clear roads with such good visibility, until we were overtaken by posses of motorbikers exceeding the speed limits and leaning over and roaring around bends practically on the wrong side of the road.

When I was working in Wales I used to sit in bars of an evening surrounded by Welshmen jabbering away in their own lingo, and I knew by instinct that they were taking the mickey out of me as an Englishman. I viewed such activities with contempt but would not brand all the Welsh like that. Many others were kindness itself and were a pleasure to be with. It takes all sorts.

Many years ago this happened to DB, SIL and family on their way home after a day out, papaoscar.
The Welsh men chuntering in the corner making rude remarks about 'the English' looked quite startled when SIL'S father answered them in their own language and said how much he had enjoyed the conversation.

Interestingly the Welsh might be hostile to the English (e.g. really really hoping the italians beat them in rugby), but don't I think make jokes about them. No joking matter if you are a conquered nation? Whereas the English frequently make jokes about the Welsh. Does this hold true I wonder in other uneven power relationships. Hmm. Women don;t make jokes about father in laws do they. There's probably a whole Phd in this hypothesis. Or several.

pappaoscar I find "jabbering in their own lingo" is pretty offensive.

I do hope 'chuntering' is not offensive, it was meant as muttering and grumbling away in the corner which is what they were doing, being offensive about the 'English tourists' who had 'invaded' their pub apparently. They did not realise that the quiet old man with the 'English tourists' was a Welsh-born, Welsh-speaker who had re-located to England years previously.

I'm glad I live in my world.

My Welsh friends and family don't feel conquered!

They would find that comment a bit, well ridiculous in this century.

We marched over the border 28 years ago, perhaps I should go back, tail between my legs.

However, my English friends are lovely, my Welsh friends are lovely. So I think I'll stay for the time being.

POGS, I agree. The only time my English-born relatives who live in Wales felt unwelcome was during the 70's when red paint was being sprayed over English signs and holiday homes were being set alight...