Scotland YES or NO

I think Dr F is a Londoner - or at least well within commuting distance - and London is a different country.

I have to agree NfkDumpling Personally I would rather "London and the South East" were the area that was going to separate. However, if Scotland does go it alone I do hope the North of England will get the same opportunity.

That's a good letter.

The union of the crowns was the first part. The second part was when England bailed out Scotland after the disastrous Darien Gap 'adventure' which left Scotland virtually bankrupt. As someone says, England probably won't want to do that again.

I think this letter tells you everything. I know Norway is a very expensive country as we spent a holiday there two years ago, and although it was fantastic, it sure did cost! Scotland was unified with England and Wales in 1707 under the act of settlement (not an accident!) after the debacle of the Darien affair, not after the first Elizabeth in 1603, that was just the joining of the two crowns under one sovereign as James of Scotland was the next in line hence he was always known as James V1th of Scotland and 1st of England they were still two separate countries until the act, exactly like The Elector of Hanover became George 1st of Gt Britain. Hanover and Gt Britain still remained different countries although sharing the same monarch.
If Scotland goes, England/Wales and Northern Ireland will still be the UK, so no need for any reapplication to the EU.

Here's the letter from the Norwegian lady Jane10 mentioned in her post

The better together campaign is quite insulting of lots of countries that have a similar population to Scotland, such as Denmark , Finland and Austria. They manage to do quite well for their people.
London is a different country. Property prices in London affect all of us up North. I cannot see how Alex Salmond is thought to be worse than the elite we have ruling us at the moment.
If I lived in Scotland I would definitely be voting Yes.
Scotland is part of the UK as an accident of birth, because Elizabeth 1 never had any children. Even in the 1800s people who had lived all their lives in England were not allowed to inherit Scottish estates. Legitimacy in Scottish law and English law was different.

Of course there won't be border controls that's just one of Ed Milliband's daft utterances.

Actually Granny23 I read what you posted and contemplated what he had written. I didn't just disregard it and carry on with my own opinion and the same old, same old, ideas posted on here ad nauseam.

I hadn't considered some of the points he raised as I'm not in the same mind set as he is, neither do I have the same politics I allegiances.

But it is interesting to read someone from the right wing of his party who has cut through some of the gumph previously trotted out by his party and called it bluff, which of course it is.

Just noticed that this thread has been revived and was planning to post a reply, but almcg2001 has said a lot of it much better that I could.

As the press is overwhelmingly supporting No, it is quite hard to find a different take on what is going on. The Wee Blue Book has been mentioned (sorry can't find by whom on a quick look) and is an interesting read at www.wingsoverscotland.com for anyone who wants a different view. The Sunday Herald (which has come out for independence) had a report yesterday about the English-Scots for Yes group, started by an Englishman who lives here. Just one of the many groups making up the Yes campaign. It would also be worth googling Iain Macwhirter, who writes for The Herald and The Sunday Herald.

The borders issue; in the early 1970s, before the EU was in its present form and before Schengen, I drove with a French family through the borders between France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany, and back, without the French passports having to be produced once. I didn't have to show mine either, as I was a passenger in a French car. Seems a bit unlikely that we would need border fences between Scotland and England, really.

Another thought for those who insist that Scotland would have to apply for EU membership from outside; if you are so determined that it is the UK as a whole, and only as a whole, which is the EU member, would that not make Scotland just as much or as little a successor state as England/Wales/NI and would both not have to reapply?

NfkDumpling, if it is a Yes vote, what about E/W/NI applying to rejoin Scotland in 5 years time?

I wouldn't think so!! Once they've gone they've gone! you can't keep on backwards and forwards. From an English point of view (not the one I held originally) I too begin to feel that a YES vote is the right way for Scotland to go. I can't see that 'bribing' them is the best way forward and I'm sure that most Scots will see these concessions as just this, the policy of desperation! and will despise Westminster for it, and it would be nice not to have all those Scottish MP's in Westminster which does cause resentment this side of the border. Much better to have two countries neither of which is shackled to the other, but it will be for ever, as to re-join the union would inevitably need a referendum in England and I can't see any of us wanting to take on a financially strapped Scotland, not this time!!!

A question:

If, in say five years time, the Scots find that everything has gone T*ts up, will there be another referendum for them asking to be re-admitted to the UK?

He says it perfectly.

And as for London being a different country. No, it is not. It is the capital city, cosmopolitan, vibrant and, importantly, inclusive. I've no idea where Forester lives, but if he is a Londoner it seems from his letter that he was swiftly voted out. Most of us detest that sort of nastiness.

Good article by Paul Krugman in New York Times.

What a very unpleasant person. His ConDem government is there as a consequence if a 65% turnout and rules with no mandate. It was not supported by the majority of the populace.

I don't know a single person in England who supports the Yes vote. That's because we value Scotland and the Scots, because we don't like nationalism, because the contribution of Scotland adds enormous value to the UK, because the vote itself is undemocratic with Scots unable to vote unless they live there and the rest of the UK having no say.

And note, I said UK, not England. Wales and Northern Ireland have a view too, although the ghastly Forester would presumably prefer to disassociate himself from those two countries as well as the England north of the Trent.

Such views need to be put firmly back into the sewer from whence they came.

He does have a very conservative, indeed romantic, view of England, doesn't he? Sounds like someone who thinks England can return to being 'English' in a way that is identified in an insular way, not as part of Europe and populated by people from many different nations. I agree that Scotland should decide for itself and think this process will be beneficial for Scotland whether it leaves the UK or not.

I hate the thought of Scotland separating from the rest of us - but have to admit, the more I read and hear the more I'm thinking the rest of us will be better off without the drain of Scotland.

I think Dr F is a Londoner - or at least well within commuting distance - and London is a different country.

Just read in today`s paper "The Scotsman"
1) A letter from a Norwegian lady outlining exactly how much costs are there. Not the cash nirvana the YES people imply. Norway is a very expensive place to live -and they still have to have food banks
2) The unemployment rate in Ireland is double what ours is
3) In the financial section that capital is being swiftly transferred out of Scotland
4) in another letter and also inside information from legal colleagues that contracts relating both to house sales and also employment are now having clauses inserted stating that the contract will be dissolved in the event of a YES vote.
We`d be just plain daft to vote yes.

Only how does Dr Forester know with such certainty the talk of an independent Scotland not keeping the pound, not seeing jobs move south is all bluff? Whatever decision Scotland makes I hope both sides of the debate up there can go forward together.
Perhaps Dr F is bluffing himself, a conservative, worlds apart in outlook and values?

Copied this from facebook this morning:

' Dear people of Scotland;

Respectfully, I’m the opposite of you. I’m English and grew up in the south east. I’m very Conservative – not just a voter – I’ve even been a Councillor. We’re worlds apart on values and on outlook.

Of course, it’s your decision and my opinion doesn’t matter. But if you asked me, I’d say: vote YES. What we need is an amicable and respectful separation from which a new, fairer friendship and partnership can emerge in which both our countries are finally, equal.

All I’ve seen from the “no” campaign is people trying to scare you for the sake of their own personal ambitions. Ed Miliband wants to scare you because he can’t win in England without you, and all he really wants is the keys to No 10. David Cameron wants to scare you because he doesn’t want to lose face. None of them really care about the Scottish people, from where I sit in the cosy south of England. At all.

The fact is though, they’re bluffing. Badly. With any separation there will, no doubt, be teething troubles and negotiations. But if the separation is the right thing to do, however difficult, a few years down the line, you look back and realise it was the right decision. You’ve moved on and your life is better. You can hold your head up high.

They’re bluffing about all of it – the currency, the jobs. Because the simple economic truth is that Britain is not going to do anything to damage the Scottish economy after independence that doesn’t also damage itself just as much. The Westminster politicians aren’t stupid. You’ll get the pound if you want it. You’ll keep the jobs and those you lose will be replaced by new investment because you’ll get to chart your own course.

What they’re not telling you is that most of us English folk would like to see it happen too. Like I said, I’m an English Conservative. Respectfully, our values and outlooks are very, very different. I understand that you don’t want your destinies ruled by English Conservatives in Westminster because you must be aware they don’t care about Scotland at all. Hopefully you’ll understand when I say: for England, most of us actually want a Conservative government. We don’t want Labour in power because of its Scottish MPs. That doesn’t reflect our true values any more than the current position reflects yours.

If you vote YES, Scotland will breathe free and will be, truly, Scotland. It’s ironic that the unintended consequence of this will be that England, too, will be able to go its own way. Your cousins across the border will actually be, well, a little grateful. It could be the start of something we badly need down here: better representation, more regionalism, more localism.

The campaign slogan for the NO vote is “Better Together”. But you can’t be together if one if you is not respected and has no rights, if one partner isn’t even recognised as an individual. Surely we’d really be better together if we were both truly ourselves: Scotland and England, equal but distinct, individual; true partners for the first time.

Like I said, my opinion doesn’t matter. I wish you all well.

Kind regards

Dr Chris Forester'

Gransnetters down south Any thoughts on this letter?

It could go either way but Westminster has make a big mistake and misjudged the Scottish psyche. Trotting out the likes of Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and John Prescott, thinking because they were/are Labour the average Scot won't realise they are losers ... every one of them.

Now Westminster's getting really rattled. Salmond can't lose, really, can he?

Even if the NOs win, he'll have gained a raft of concessions for Scotland which will give the Scots even more independence and give the rest of the UK even more cause for resentment!

(I have no axe to grind either way, merely an observation)

That's ok Gilly. We will just agree to disagree

Apologies Agus i was reading and cooking at the same time I get what you are saying but unfortunately don't agree with you. Yes there are many nationalities living in Scotland who are not Scottish but just like when there is a sporting tournament (that Scotland are not taking part in) the Scottish will tend to support any team but the English, which I find very odd considering we are "next door". I think perhaps some Scottish people would welcome any outsider to work (or indeed have free university tuition) as long as they are not English.
Where do you think the resentment has come from thatbags? Surely it cannot be just a resentment towards Westminster as being a northerner I feel that too but don't want to break away .