Scotland YES or NO

jollyg, we are all stating our opinions here, and I think it's a bit strong to describe any of them as "biased". Obviously we differ from each other, or there would not be 200 posts on this thread, but if I can respect thatbags and Grandmanorm and their right to hold their own opinions while I disagree with them completely, surely you could try to do the same for those of us with whom you disagree.

Incidentally, I am not being led by the nose by anyone and, as I have said before, this is not a Presidential election for Alex Salmond.

What Scotland cannot do is have its cake and eat it. If the vote is yes, it will be the responsibility of the rest of the UK to look after itself thereafter with no emotion. There is no other way.

jollyg As one who is not in favour of devolution I hope that folk will accept the result whatever it is and that there is peace.
I too respect others' opinions, they have as much right to theirs as I have to mine.
I have written quite a lot on this thread. I am so not a political person but this vote saddens and worries me greatly.
It would be a strange old world if we all thought the same. I repeat, we need to respect others views.
That is the adult thing to do.

Yes Crow, of course we all have a right to our own opinions and the right to voice them in a peaceful way. But like you this potential separation saddens and deeply worries me. I'm all for patriotism up to a point, but history has taught us the dangers of nationalism and the disasters that can stem from fervent flag flying. It could be fine for a while but how can anybody know what the world will be like in 10/ 20/30 years time. Crisis, financial and otherwise seem to blow up out of nowhere, and how on earth could a small country deal with that without the support of it's neighbours? I have no connection with Scotland whatsoever, and have only been there on two fantastic holidays years ago, but if it does decide to leave us, I do fear for their long term future.

Indeed, nigglynellie so do I.

www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/06/12/anything-but-dave-scots-back-independence-under-cameron

A very interesting survey here.

Interesting article durhamjen but aren't most prime ministers quite unpopular at this stage in their leadership? Who would they rather see in the job? Ed Milliband? It would be interesting to find out.

Interesting piece by Jan Moir.

Tarton trolls cyber attacks on anyone who dare to suggest voting NO.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2656791/JAN-MOIR-As-Scot-venom-tartan-trolls-makes-ashamed.html

Now Hilary Clinton is voicing her views........... No It was Bush who did not know where anyplace was in the world, he did know Scotland through his iolie connections viz Bill Gammell

Should be OILIE

The anonymous online abuse of JK Rowling is repugnant to most people of every political persuasion. To quote a sentence about the so-called cybernats in Jan Moir's article:"They are not representative of a Scotland I know and love." Of course it makes a good story to say that these bampots are everywhere and represent the rest of us. They don't, any more than the idiots who did the same to the Weirs for donating to the Yes campaign represent Better Together.

Halfwits are everywhere; those of us with more than half a brain do not need to take them seriously.

Well! reading all this and the article by Jan Moir,I can't help but feel that if independence is really what the Scottish people want, then of course that is what they must have, but I would say 'Be careful what you wish for', and while you may ring the bells today, you could well ring your hands tomorrow. All the unpleasantness seems based on a deep seated hatred of England and the English, and if that is the case (as it seems to be), then perhaps sadly we in England are better off without YOU! A paranoid dislike of the Tory Government and David Cameron in particular seems to be a rather shallow reason for independence, as they aren't permanently in power, and no doubt will be trounced at the next election, re establishing a Labour Government which presumably is approved of north of the border?! so long term that can't really be a reason for hatred of all things English!!
It never ceases to amaze me that even though a good proportion of the world seems to dislike this country so much, so many still can't wait to come and live here including the Scots!!!!!

nigglynellie, for the umpteenth time, we do not hate you!!! Those of us who want independence to be friends with the other nations in our islands and have governments which we have voted for. What suits London does not always suit us (that also applies to much of the north of England).

I do not recognise the paranoia of which you speak in relation to the Tory (or rather Coalition) government - dislike, yes, disagreement, yes. I think the paranoia comes from the other side as often as not.

*nigglynellie*, for the umpteenth time, we do not hate you!!!
I totally agree with When.
I shall repeat what I have said in almost everything I have written. We, the Scots, do not hate the English. Most have families who have intermarried and we are very happy with our English family and neighbours.
There will always be folk who shout that they don't like this or that, please don't judge all of us by those who shout hatred.

It is awful what is happening on social media, the word traitor is being bandied about, in some cases it seems to be turning Brother against brother.
All of the money, from whatever source, which is being spent on this campaign is a disgrace, while there is 1 food bank in the UK.
I should say at this point, I will duck behind the settee, But I wont!!!
That Salmond man and his sidekick should be ashamed, He, in my opinion, started this campaign just for the Glory of being the one who got independence for Scotland.

To be fair to Alex Salmond [might be the only time I ever write that] Scottish Independence has always been his aim and that of his party.Of course it has, yes, if it happens, he will bask in the glory, but if it is a NO vote [or a YES vote that then gives years of trouble] then he also has to deal with that.I am English BTW, but as the Scottish people have been given this chance to totally rule themselves, whatever we think, we should respect their judgement.It's sure to be an outcome of which a lot of thought has gone into.I still think it will be a NO vote though.

It would appear that the Nationalist social media bullies are targeting anyone in the public eye who dare to disagree with them, including David Bowie and Sir Chris Hoy.

I agree with newist that Alex Salmond is in it for the glory and to satisfy his over inflated ego.

Nilggily
I wrote this a few days ago.

It was Blair who instigated a Scottish parliament, It was his sidekick Dewar who negotiated Pr for the voters in the expectation Labour would always dominate , and win.

It was Dewar who sanctioned the new building at Holyrood, with a huge excessive overspend, and now the building is falling to bit and might last another 5 years.

But PR backfired on Labour, and Salmond got in, no wonder he thinks he is going to win the argument. Scotland in the past has been supine to Labour, Gorbals Mike as Speaker what a joke?

Blair and New Labour have a lot to answer for in this debate, so have the voters who voted them in.......... English perhaps?

I was writing a post but realised I had said it all before. I don't think genuine hatred exists. An unthinking minority may exhibit such a tendency, but I doubt if it's anything more.

These blimkered idiots who have abused someone for stating an opinion are NOT representative of Scots. There are as many shades of opinion in Scotland over this independence referendum as anywhere else, and the campaign has been carried out so far with politeness and respect on both sides, for the most part.

There are always some who can't control their aggression, which probably has nothing to do with JK Rowling's statement, but a lot to do with their own built-in nastiness and the chance to be anonymously obnoxious. You just have to read the comments under almost any newspaper article on any subject at all to see the rent-a-gobs come out of the woodwork. They just open their mouths to let their bellies rumble.

I fail to understand why Better Together trolls keep portraying Alex Salmond as a puffed up pompous dictator which is so far from the truth as to be completely unbelievable, especially for people who have actually met him. Here are the recent Ipsos Mori leadership approval ratings for Scottish Party Leaders with DC and AD for comparison.

Alex Salmond
Net rating: +5%

Nicola Sturgeon
Net rating: +13%

Patrick Harvie
Net rating: +15%

Johann Lamont
Net rating: -1%

Ruth Davidson
Net rating: -5%

Willie Rennie
Net rating: -20%

David Cameron
Net rating: -36%

Alistair Darling
Net rating: -16%

Results are based on a survey of 1,003 respondents (adults aged 16+) conducted by telephone (Scottish Parliament voting intention is only asked to those aged 18+)

Fieldwork dates: 26th May 2014 – 1st June 2014

Just to re-iterate once again - The Independence referendum is not about Alex Salmond. Dennis Canavan (formerly a Labour MP) is the chair and Blair Jenkins (no party affiliation) is the CEO of the YES Campaign. The MSM seldom print anything that the official leaders of the Campaign say, preferring to distort and misrepresent every utterance of Alex Salmond to their own Unionist ends. The referendum is about Scotland's right to self-determination, the chance to have Governments that we choose rather than the ones foisted upon us by our 10x larger neighbours, the right to decide whether WMD can be kept in our nation or used in our name without us having any control, the right to choose to concentrate on eradicating Child Poverty and food banks rather than spend billions on replacing said WMD or even building motorways and HSR that do not benefit us in any way.

I do not know of any instance where a pro-indie Gransnetter has been rude or expressed any view which could be construed as anti-English but it seems that many GNs prefer to believe the rantings of unionist columnists rather than the honestly expressed opinions of fellow Gransnetters. I keep vowing to stay off this thread (I have only the odd halfhour to spare between current 24/7 caring duties) but then I get drawn in again to counter some more misinformation. Ho-Hum - back to the coal-face, with a very watery

I do not understand why JK Rowling had to tell everyone she had given a million to the No campaign, Gillybob. She must have known the sort of reaction she would get.

To preempt the press only the DM got in first and told the world that she had given a million.

Why shouldn't she publicise it durhamjen - as Marmight says, the press would have been on to it and she is a public figure I suppose.

Why the bl**dy hell should she (JK Rowling) not publish her (it would appear to be) drop in the ocean £1 million donation durhamjen ? The (unearned) lottery winners (the Weirs) have revelled in their multi million £ donation to the "yes" campaign, so where is the difference?

TBH I used to care but recent events have made me wonder??!!! I only hope that our (more) Northern friends get what they wish/hope for ????