EU Vote

What is so weird often, is the vitriolic intolerance some 'expats' (who do not believe they are foreigners) show towards other immigrants here- who often do speak the language and have integrated well. Someone recently complained that the kid's class had to be shared with 2 kids from the ex Balkans who do not speak English !!! when their own kids do not speak any French and need lots of special help (at great expense to local taxpayers)- even though they could have organised French classes for the kids before they arrived here. but didn't bother (and they could have afforded it). it is often funny- but more often a bit embarrassing and tragic.

Which might go some way towards explaining the resentment and hostility sometimes in evidence as in the examples above.

Mamie, yes, I certainly agree with the view expressed in your last post, but many ordinary citizens of EU countries wouldn't be able to relate to it because they would never entertain the idea of leaving their own country to take up a job in another one.

They expect jobs to be available where they live, and however unrealistic that might be in reality, it's also not realistic to expect people to up sticks and work their way around the EU just because they could, in theory, do so. Many haven't the confidence or the qualifications.

HollyDaze- yes this is true, in many parts of Switzerland you need a C permit in order to buy (many long-term Brits have got a C permit). Most of them do not buy though, but rent the best and most expensive apartments via re-location agents- on direct contracts with UK/and USA firms- by-passing the local population. Kids go to international schools and have little contact with any locals either.

Some of course do make the effort, send kids to local school, join local clubs, etc, but are sadly in the minority. Just like some other ghettos in the world- they often live parralle lives. Just like many Swiss in Spain, btw.

Yes, we do have different viewpoints, but no problem with that. I do think it is important to speak the language of the country in which you live and I speak French pretty fluently, but I certainly don't think you have to stay anywhere for ever. My in-laws lived in the Middle East for many years, as did my OH as a child. They lived and worked there for a bit and then moved on. We have lived in France for ten years now, after this, who knows?
All part of life's rich pattern, surely?

Mamie - reading comments on this thread (granted, mainly about Brits not learning foreign languages but the same complaints are made against immigrants in Britain) and yes, I did see it in Spain too; I suppose not all people want to integrate fully and don't mind the language barrier (until it bites them) so I'm not sure about it being a sweeping statement (but I'm happy to be corrected if necessary). It's probably that if people don't intend to spend the rest of their lives in another country, they may feel it's not worth the effort - who knows.

We definitely come at things from opposing angles Mamie but that's what makes discussion interesting and informative.

That is nice Ariadne.
Hollydaze, I think your last statement is a bit of a sweeping one. What is "it" that isn't working? Do economic migrants necessarily need / want to be completely absorbed? Don't they just need to integrate enough to survive, do the work that they have obtained effectively, pay taxes and manage their lives independently?
Like Granjura, I get frustrated by some of the ex-pat community who make no effort to learn the language (you must have seen lots of that in Spain), but there are plenty that do. Personally I feel very comfortable in this community, have enjoyed my time as a local councillor and have made some of the best friends I have ever had here. We won't stay for ever, but our time here will have enriched our lives enormously.
I am proud to be European.

I haven't been around much recently, but have just caught up and read this thread with great interest; despite all the differing views and opinions, the arguments are lively, intelligent, and perceptive, and the research and knowledge displayed is GN at its best. (The intellectual left and right at their best? ) The divisions triggered by the election results are apparent here too, aren't they?

I have noticed only one post which is offensive but offers no original thoughts or analysis, and it is a one off!

I feel my brain coming to life again, slowly. Thanks.

granjura - I am surprised about that happening in Switzerland. We have a friend (who is French) who has an apartment in Adelboden and he said the only reason he was allowed to buy it is because his sister married a Swiss man. He also said that you need to have a serious amount of money in the bank before they will even consider selling you a property; not sure how much of that is true though.

From what you have said, it seems that many economic migrants of any persuasion don't really want to be absorbed into their new home country. All reflected in the voting across Europe - it just doesn't seem to be working.

Ah, but not my son granjura!

He's multi-lingual .... but doesn't speak German although currently in Lucerne. He gets by on English and French

When he was in Lugano, with no Italian, he found Latin and Spanish came in handy

Ah yes, you are right there. But not the British ... and there are quite a few of them ;) living in a parrallel society most of them. I know some who have been here for 10+, even 20+ years, and could barely string a sentence together.

Sorry granjura I meant the Americans (assuming that's correct!)

How? Many have been on the dole and then on social security, get a job again for just long enough, and start all over again. No, as they are EU, they can't be told to leave. I know someone from UK who worked for 3 months only and has been on social security for years and years- and another one who worked for a short time. Now applying for Disability benefit (which is high here!) too.

The difference though granjura is that they can be told to leave at any time!

Certainly the great majority of Brits (and US Americans) working here in Switzerland do NOT make the effort to learn the language- only meet each other socially and make very little effort to integrate. Furthermore, they have pushed up rents hugely in towns like Zug, Zurich area and Lausanne/Geneva area- to the point where locals have had to move out. They also make huge demands on the education system, roads, etc- and constantly make requests for the system to change in their favour.

But they consider themselves as 'expats' and not foreigners ;)

Riverwalk, I had four Eastern Europeans in my house last year who didn't speak a word of English. Two young man who had come to make a template for a silestone work surface for the new kitchen we were having fitted. Due to the kitchen installers over running and the house being a complete mess with guests arriving, I asked for a local cleaning agency to send a couple of cleaners to do a one off clean. Whist the two girls they sent were hardworking they didn't have any English whatsoever and some of the work I wanted them to do didn't get done because they couldn't understand my instructions.

Nevertheless, I concede that a great number of Eastern Europeans do have good English and we have an excellent local cafe staffed by lovely Latvians.

I agree Riverwalk about our own citizens, where I live there have been many new schools built or expanded and still there are children without places. The infant school where my own children went has doubled in size and is now heavily over subscribed, this wasn't the case 25 years or so ago.

My younger son secured a job in a clothes shop after A levels and came back to it in the summer breaks whilst at University. When he graduated, and not wanting to be out of work, he returned there whilst looking for a better job. This shop went into liquidation and was bought out by a larger chain with a very unprincipled fat cat boss at the helm. Zero hour contracts were implemented for all the staff with ridiculous hours. For example my son did a shift Christmas Eve 7am to 4pm and then without any notice was asked to do another shift hours later 10 pm to 4 am (Christmas morning) sorting out stock, when he said he was unable to he was sent a text saying "it may not be much of a job but you are lucky to have it". He handed his notice in mid January to concentrate on looking for a better job as after the sales, his work hours dwindled, to on occasions as little as 4 hours a week. He was told he wouldn't be able to draw the dole as he shouldn't have given his notice in, but thankfully got that overturned and did draw it intermittently as he managed to get temp work some weeks. Fortunately he has now secured a full time job in a field he wanted to go in to.

Deborah Orr wrote in the Guardian a while back that Labour should stop banging on about living standards but make more of a case about the appalling way workers are treated. However, when they do pick up that cause it sounds so disingenuous as they were so hell bent on swelling our numbers whatever the cost to our own people.

I also read an article in the Independent a while back about newly settled Poles who feared the Romanians coming to their area as they would undercut them by working for £4 per hour, legal or otherwise.

As you say HollyDaze the political elite don't get it.

So far, even with those results, predictions are that Labour will fail to achieve a majority in 2015. Brace yourselves for a Lab-Lib coalition determined to tax and spend their way to economic ruin!

Labour is in with more than a chance to win ... they beat the Tories in the EU elections, just, and by far beat them in the local elections.

If Labour want to be in with even a chance of winning the next election they will HAVE to offer a referendum on the EU.They know this, and will bluster for a bit, and then change tack.Then it's anyones guess who will win the next general election.

Interesting points raised.

Rationally put too which is a bonus.

Oh I don't think that is necessarily true TerriBull. There are huge numbers of migrant workers in Germany, Holland, Luxembourg, Scandinavia etc. People go where the jobs and opportunities are.
The tight employment regulations are part of what hampers the French economy and stops it growing. There really isn't a word for entrepreneur here.
However I do think there is an issue about the British being willing to learn other languages. I suspect most of the Brits working in Europe are highly-skilled and working in anglophone companies.

Interesting answer Mamie, I have heard the bureaucracy in France can be a stumbling block.

Possibly if Eurosceptics felt there was a more quid pro quo scenario as far as job opportunities for all in mainland Europe is concerned and it wasn't just a one way traffic the European dream might be more palatable.

Most of Eastern Europe will have quite a way to go before it reaches economic parity with the West and with so many Southern European countries being economic basket cases, it seems for the foreseeable future at any rate, we are to be the main host nation for the rest of the EU.

^
But there can be no doubt that UK citizens lower down the income scale do suffer as a result, and it's this fact that the political elite don't get.^

The well-off politicians and big business owners can hire cleaners for less than they were paying 10 years ago and they can be assured of plenty of waiting staff at restaurants and bars. It's not their children who can't find a place in the local school and they don't need to languish in the social housing queue.

Well said Riverwalk. I don't think it's just the political elite - this is something that people tend to overlook or simply fail to understand as they are no longer in that position; I'm sure if they were, they would think very differently.

There are a number of reasons why so many EU skilled and unskilled workers come to the UK:

- They speak English, often fluently
- Own country poor compared to UK so even low-paid jobs are attractive
- They have a goal e.g. build a house at home and eventually return
- Relatively generous benefits .... and so on.

As they are entitled to come, who can blame them?

But there can be no doubt that UK citizens lower down the income scale do suffer as a result, and it's this fact that the political elite don't get.

The well-off politicians and big business owners can hire cleaners for less than they were paying 10 years ago and they can be assured of plenty of waiting staff at restaurants and bars. It's not their children who can't find a place in the local school and they don't need to languish in the social housing queue.

TerriBull

Coming from tolerant Britain, the one thing that surprised me in Spain was the placing of signs outside local schools and GP surgeries that stated: 'if your child (or you) cannot speak Spanish, you must bring along an interpreter at your own expense' (the interpreter would have to remain with the child at school until they learned basic Spanish). This isn't such a big problem in the big cities but it did surprise me as I've never heard of that being said anywhere in Britain.

In some restaurants/shops, if you don't make an attempt to speak Spanish, they can be a bit, erm, unhelpful!

When the local councils replaced road signs with a different way of spelling (Javea instead of Xabia, Jalon instead of Xalon), the locals were painting out the new signs and spray painting the old spellings back in. I also saw spray painting on walls stating 'English go home'. It isn't always a bed of roses but, saying that, many of the Spanish were very friendly and helpful.

You would think that not being in competition for work would be an advantage but they blame us (oddly enough, not the Germans who were there first in large numbers till their Government made it financially disadvantageous for them to have holiday homes or live in semi-retirement in other EU countries) for their lack of housing and rising house prices - also the loss of some beautiful headland to building (which I sypathised with).

It would seem the feelings in the UK regarding Europe are mirrored by many in those very countries.