EU Vote

It's a triumphant day for divide and rule isn't it. Whose fault is it that people are struggling to make ends meet. Not the greedy people who work in finance and who got this country into terrible debt as a direct result of that greed. Oh no. Its the immigrants and the EU for being wasteful.

I'm twisting nothing. Reread your own posts.

And, oh dear, you've clearly had a little peep at profiles. But you still have not explained what you mean by the intellectual left. I await the explanation with bated breath.

As for your final paragraph, please state your sources and evidence. Assertion, supposition and surmise are not persuasive.

Please do not twist what I say and disregard what you have said and make assumptions.

Salutes. Yes ma'am.

Miliband, Toynbee, some teachers and lecturers, oh where do I go from here, I would be typing all night.

Many on here of course?
(But not the Labour voters who are struggling because, as is evident from their posts when they try to explain what life is really like in some areas, they are bullied off never to be seen again)..

Is that what it is all about - things so important as metrification- goodness gracious me -doh.

It's like driving on the left or right- both are fine, as long as we all agree. You just can't mix the two though. It was in 1971 for goodness sake- it is not brain surgery, really. 1 kg is just under 2 imperial pounds -minus one bite of an apple- it does not take 43 years to get to grips with that. Sorry but really ??? Downtrodden- because of metrification?

How on earth do you import and export when systems are mixed- it just does not work.

Let's go back to selling carpets priced on Square yard, in 2, 3, or 4 metre widths and by the linear foot- fabulous (not). Rant over.

Oh dear Rosequartz, you're shifting ground now.

You said 'I would doubt that my immigrant friends would ever vote Labour. They are the sort of immigrants that people say are welcome, hardworking and aspirational'.

In a later post you changed 'immigrants' to 'anyone'.

That first post was why so many on here took exception to your view. The implication was very clear. If you didn't mean what you said, you should retract.

I'm quite unclear about what you mean by 'the intellectual left'. Please clarify.

The straight banana story was a MYTH. Just look at the oddly shaped fruit and vegetables on a French market stall and ask yourself which country makes more fuss about things like that.

Well, so does our family and social group, Granjura, although not stretching to the extremes politically.

mamie, I feel very sorry for you with your new MEP . I can only imagine how you must be feeling - I'm depressed enough having heard that there is a UKIP MEP in Scotland now. I really thought that, judging by recent by-election results, we would manage to avoid that.

It would be nice to have a bit of reform in the EU - sell off one of the 2 parliament buildings for a start - but I would have preferred to do it without the nastier right-wing parties (including the policy-lite zone which is UKIP) getting involved. Like you, annodomini, I have grave fears for the environment now.

And yes, if I am asked to vote in an in/out referendum, I will vote IN.

Well, I think we should stay in the EU, but I do hope that these results will give them all a good shake-up and start them thinking that many people are sick of the gravy train, the unaccountability of how they spend our money and the sheer ridiculousness of some of the rules and regulations meted out on a regular basis. A lot of perfectly good food must have been wasted over the years until some of the regulations regarding size, shape etc were scrapped not so long ago.

Another example of riding roughshod over ordinary people was forcing metrication on traders:
^Sunderland grocer Steve Thoburn inspired the "metric martyr" movement with his defiance of the order to abandon the imperial measurements.
In 2001, he was convicted for having weighing scales which had only imperial measurements.^

Our whole family is made up of immigrants one way or another. And all aspirational and hard-working. OH and his sibblings could not be better examples of this. Both OH and I would definitely vote to be in Europe- the consequences of pulling out would be incredibly bad for the UK I believe. As said above, we must fight to reform the European Union's excesses- that is quite sure, but pulling out no.

BTW I've never voted Labour- due to the First Past the Post system it would have been a total waste. The system has its advantages, but it is the least democratic system possible in a 'democracy'- with a vast number of votes going straight into the bin- and a PM being able to be elected with very few votes proportionally. In the UK, if you happen to live in a constiutency which does not represent your views- it is not even worth bothering to vote at all. I always did, as a principle- knowing full well it would go to waste. Apart from in local elections- where my vote usually counted.

Many people live in families and social groups which belong to one political group, one religion, one social class, one nationality- I am really grateful that our extended family and social group stretches from the left to the right, with the full spectrum in between, same for social 'class', religion (or none), nationality, race, etc- as it certainly makes you think and re-think all the time, which can't be a bad thing.

^Anyone speculated about the possibility that we could in the next five years have these to chaps leading the tories and the labour party:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajid_Javid
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuka_Umunna

Both would appear to have the ability.^

And the arrogance

MiceSelf's quote: Labour's heartlands are the inner city areas. Always have been. Its vote came, for the most part from the poor, the dispossessed and those without much power. And, for the most part, still does. That's why it's strong among those who live in the inner city and those who have come to this country one, two or three generations ago. Most 'immigrants' are British or EU citizens. As are those who were born here and now live any one of the other European countries.

My friend's view: He thinks the intellectual left, unfortunately, are out of touch with how the ordinary people of Britain live on a daily basis as they pontificate from their ivory towers (not just the politicians) - as are the other two parties.

I said that my immigrant friends would probably not vote Labour. I also said that they are hardworking and aspirational, the sort of people that one reads about being welcome here. I was just questioning whether one should assume that most people who came to this country would vote Labour as stated in MiceSelf's post. To then claim that I said that anyone who votes Labour is not hardworking and aspirational is a ludicrous presumption and I take exception to that.

Other people should be welcome here because they need help and refuge, as did my ancestors.

Red tape, bullying over court cases, the example that POGS gave of the Irish having to keep voting until they gave the RIGHT answer (ie the one the EU wanted!), liberally spending taxpayers' money and never signing off the accounts, need I go on?

Yes, I would want to stay in the EU - we just need some sensible changes so that more power is held here, as it was the Common Market we voted to stay in (well I didn't - I was busy in the delivery room, having my first child that day).

Yes, I would vote to stay in European Union. We need MEPs who are committed, hardworking and have the ability to manage the undoubted changes that are needed.

As for the quote above Ana, it was from the mouth of a UKIP councillor. I rest my case

Absolutely I would vote to stay in. I consider myself a European (UK born, live in France, son with family in Spain). We have had seventy years of peace, we have the freedom to live and work in Europe, we have laws which protect us. I think some elements need reform, especially things like the CAP, but I see far more benefits than disadvantages.
I don't think you reform an institution by electing people who are fundamentally opposed to its existence and who make a pretty poor show of turning up, while they cynically take the pay and expenses. (Have a look at UKIP's voting record.)

Reading all the anti- UKIP talk on here, do I take it that you would all, since you welcome all immigrants from where ever with open arms, vote for us staying in the EU? If - and it's a very big if - any of the parties dared to have a referendum?

and before you ask Sajid (Pakistani) and Chuka (half Nigerian half grandson of high court white UK judge)

Wonder what kind of immigrant Ed Milliband is apart from Russian Jewish. Or Portillo apart from Spanish. Or Michael Howard Romanian/Welsh Jewish
Anyone speculated about the possibility that we could in the next five years have these to chaps leading the tories and the labour party:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajid_Javid
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuka_Umunna

Both would appear to have the ability.

Oh, so Londoners are 'too well-educated' to vote for UKIP, are they? What a load of cobblers...

Micelf I have to stand alongside you in the lazy and uninspirational group as I've always voted left of centre, including Labour. I did think that my education and teaching career might have counted for something but clearly years of work are negated by the act of voting Labour. Maybe the immigrant strand in the family explains that since my great great gd came over from Ireland. Oh no, wait a minute maybe he was the right kind of immigrant who did produce a hard -working and inspirational family who did achieve. So confused!

I think the constituencies are so huge for these elections that it is hard to generalise. Also, really, how can we generalise about "immigrants".
For all we know people in inner cities were less likely to vote UKIP because they live in vibrant mult-ethnic Britain and are more tolerant than those who live in the shires. Or for all we know lots of immigrants voted for UKIP because they do not want more people allowed in.
Wales is a single constituency with 4 seats. About 4 million population. It includes rural areas where there are no immigrants to speak of beyond maybe the owners of the local takeaway. We've been welcoming immigrants for a long time - into Cardiff docklands(the likes of Shirley Bassey and Colin Jackson, very much Welsh). Italian immigrants in the industrial revolution opening cafes, Chinese and other asian immigrants opening restaurants. And there are a lot of English immigrants - particularly retiring to the N Wales coastal strip. We've had shed loads of EU funding. Yet, mysteriously, quite a few Welsh people vote UKIP.

The only good thing to come out of the NW Euro election has been the annihilation of Nick Griffin and the BNP. However...

Yes the NF did have that proportion of the actual vote POGS. I very carefully said 11% of the electorate. The Couldn't Be Bothered to Vote party was in the majority.

Writing as the daughter of an immigrant, Rosequartz, I can only say that your immigrants are very different to mine.

But then, given your description of the immigrants you know, I suppose you would describe me and those I know as lazy and unaspirational. We have always been on the left and voted for a range of parties

But then, I'm thinking of the only sensible sentence to emerge from the lips of a UKIP councillor.

'Londoners have not turned out to back UKIP because the capital's population is too well educated'. Suzanne Evans conceded that 'we haven't really got our message across for this reason.