Palestinian flag to fly over Edinburgh council building now

I get so cross, terribull when they cut services but waste money on unnecessary schemes, frivolities and themselves, which are nothing to do with local government as I remember it from 50 or so years ago when I worked in LG.

I do agree rosequartz.

nigglienellie I cannot help but notice that anything to do with Israel provokes howls of fury, whereas atrocity perpetrated by the other side whether in the form of rockets, tunnels, the population being used as human shields or public executions, the silence is deafening!!

www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/hamas-kills-11-suspected-informers-israel-201482285624490268.html

You are quite right. I am not taking sides as there are atrocities on both sides, (see link above, the Israeli attacks are already very well documented), and I think it is way beyond the remit of a local Council to declare an interest by flying the flag of another state.

The Council should be spending its time caring for its own population, keeping the streets clean, keeping open its public toilets, looking after its roads, educating its young (without prejudice) etc and should take a long hard look at what its duties are to its local taxpayers.

For too long local Councils have exceeded their basic duties and then claim they have no money left for essential services such as looking after the old, the young, keeping open libraries etc. They need to get back to basics.

I think that data shows that the minority group suffering the greatest abuse is the Asian & the Islamic community. It has been so for years but does not seem to generate the same 'general public' level of concern that anti-Jewish abuse does.

Both are equally vile and to be denounced. The country (the electorate and the elected) should be shouting loudly that discrimination/ racism of any sort needs to stop and the existing laws must be implemented to deal with any incidents fairly and equitably across all communities.

Bradford's Muslim community, according to the 2011 census, outnumbers the city's Jews by 129,041 to 299. Yet they have co-existed in harmony. In 2013, it was the Muslim community that was mainly responsible for saving the last remaining synagogue in Bradford. A lot of good work has gone on between community leaders to ensure that the two groups live and work in peace.

And then we get Galloway, who according to press reports is now saying that by refuting his statement that Israelis are not welcome in Bradford, the local Labour group has ensured his re-election. I certainly hope not. According to a Guardian report, Jews living in Bradford have recently reported concerns about verbal abuse. We should all be worried about how quickly this sort of thing can escalate.

Last paragraph should read a super power that gives Israel unequivocal support.

Trisher, if you read my post you will see that I stated that Jewish communities in our country are targeted irrespective of what their attitudes to the Palestine/Israeli conflict might be. Yes I am well aware of the 300 Jewish Holocaust survivors and their descendants who have protested against the bombing of Gaza. I have also read an interview with the Jewish actress, Miriam Margoyles, who stated that her sympathies were with the Palestinian people and that was very much my point that not all Jewish people will approve of what Israel is doing.

The local council issue was succinctly put across by Jane Ainsworth when she said that they should not be taking sides on foreign policy.

I agree very much with POGS, anti Jewish feeling is gaining momentum, not helped by the likes of Shabana Mahmood, George Galloway and the Mayor of Tower Hamlets who incidentally employed some very questionable tactics in the recent local elections. These people are public servants and they know well that some of their actions are inflaming attitudes towards Jewish communities in this country, as I stated before the demonstration at Sainsburys resulted in the removal of Kosher food as well as Israeli produce. These people have no right to appoint themselves as spokespeople for all of us. Shoppers can make up their own minds whether they wish to boycott produce from Israel or not.

I do not wholeheartedly support the Israelis, I think they can be unbelievably intransigent and tunnel visioned at times and the Palestinians are of course not helped by having a super power give them unequivocal support, or HAMAS for that matter who are quite happy to sacrifice innocent people. I do see the Palestinians as the underdog who were removed from what were their lands for centuries and sacrificed for the ideal which is Israel. If those politicians of a bygone era had any foresight they would have given the Jewish people somewhere else to settle. However, when you are among a group of people who have undergone centuries of persecution around the world, culminating in 6 million of your fellow Jews being wiped out no doubt this would shape your mindset and your instinct for survival. Lets not forget Israelis are surrounded by countries who would wish to wipe them from the face of the earth. Having visited Israel 30 or so years ago I can still remember vividly sitting in a beach side cafe in the resort of Netanya and seeing a group of fairly elderly people at the next table with their concentration numbers clearly visible, it left a last impression on me. I have read quite a few articles of late by Jewish journalists across a spectrum of papers and they are all saying the same thing, they have a growing uneasiness about being a Jew at the moment.

I totally agree with the thread posted by POGS. I think it is quite disgraceful that a democratically elected council and M.P should do what amounts to 'taking sides' in a dangerous and complicated situation such as exists in Gaza/Israel. There is right and wrong on both sides of this conflict, deep seated hatreds which by flying a particular flag, trying to stop goods being sold in a legitimate place of sale can certainly degenerate into racial hatred and all that goes hand in glove with that scenario. I cannot help but notice that anything to do with Israel provokes howls of fury, whereas atrocity perpetrated by the other side whether in the form of rockets, tunnels, the population being used as human shields or public executions, the silence is deafening!!

You would think these councils busy with their various flags would instead be quite busy collecting monies, looking after the wheelie bins, all the mundane but essential things they are supposed to be doing, for us.

This has been discussed on another thread and I am sticking to my opinion this is not only a slippery road to be going down it is downright dangerous.

For those who consider the council are right to be displaying the Palestinian flag how would you be feeling if it was the Israeli flag the council had chosen to fly, showing solidarity for the Israeli nation. I think there would be shouting from the rooftops, quite rightly so because it is a crass, reckless action which is tantamount to inciting racial hatred.

Since the discussion on the other thread there has been the case of Sister Christine who removed the 'black flag' from flying over the Will Crooks estate in East London, alongside the Palestinian flag. Labour MP Shabana Mahmood was at the helm of an anti Israeli demonstration protesting against Sainsbury's stocking Israeli goods. If this is going to be considered perfectly in order then I for one want no part of it and we have all seen what this behaviour leads to and by god it's ugly and frightening how quick this racial hatred causes physical harm.

Anti Jewish sentiment is gaining momentum, there is plenty of evidence of that both here and abroad. The action of flying a flag by councils is knowingly stoking the fire and it is plain and simply wrong and has no place in a democratic society that 'supposedly' serves peoples from any ethnic background who are citizens of this United Kingdom.

Scottish rules about flying flags (I don't know what is involved in England and Wales) -

"The only flags that should be flown from Scottish Government buildings in Scotland are the Saltire, the Union flag, the European flag (Europe Day only), the Red Ensign (Merchant Navy Day only) the Commonwealth flag (Commonwealth Day only), The Armed Forces Day flag (Armed Forces Day only) and the Royal Standard at St Andrew’s House (by Special Command or Royal Assent). Other flags, including those of other nations, should not be flown from Scottish Government buildings."

BUT

"Local authority buildings and schools are not affected by these guidelines, the matter of flag flying remaining one for individual local authorities to determine. These rules and dates are not binding on any other public institutions, or members of the public. With the exception of the Royal Standard, which may not be flown without permission from The Queen, these other groups may fly any flag at any time, no weight of public authority being implied behind such flag flying."
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/People/royal-ceremonial/Flag-Flying-Guidance-2012

So, as the Edinburgh council building is a local authority building, not a Scottish Government building, they are within the law to fly whatever flag the want (The Jolly Roger?)

I thought that there was a law about flying flags on public buildings. Possibly it even applies to private buildings. I think it states that usually only the Union flag and a local/county flag may be flown. Of course, this may not apply in Scotland, which has its own legal system.

ja I agree.

I do not think that they should be flying any flag except one belonging to Edinburgh, Scotland or the Union.

Foreign policy is completely outside the remit of local councils. Period.

I don't agree Trisher I thought Terribull wrote an excellent post.

Oh dear TerriBull what a rant! What about the 300 Jewish holocaust survivors and descendants who condemned the Israeli bombing of Gaza? The idea that it is anti-Semitic to speak out about Israel's actions just doesn't wash, especially when not all Jews support the actions. Flying the flag is described as "a gesture of solidarity with the people of Gaza" by the council. Given that it is the people of Gaza- not Hamas- who are being supported, the same people who are being injured and dying from the bombing, who desperately need medical supplies and even such basics as food and water I don't see how anyone can object. If people don't like it they can make their objections known to their elected Councillor.

That is my opinion too, Penstemmon I don't think it helps EITHER cause for a city to fly the flag of one or other party. To fly the flag of Palestine gives the impression of anti-semitism (while the conflict is with the state of Israel, not with Jews of any other nationality) and to fly the flag of Israel would seem rabidly pro semitic. Both or neither! The DEC flag would have been enough to publicise the concern of the council for the people under fire.

This is a very complicated situation, which needs careful diplomacy, not a sledgehammer.

There are a lot of British politicians around (either side of the Scottish border, and not just British ones either) who use international conflicts to make themselves highly visible in the news.

I do not want to get embroiled in another debate about the Palestinian situation as I think it has been aired fully and frankly on another thread.
However I do want to say that I think it is unhelpful to cause 'additional' disagreements by flying flags of either side anywhere that is not directly representing Israel or Palestine. Palestine has few enough friends in its corner without these 'friends' causing more controversy in their attempts to support them. However I am not sure how it is possible for any organisation to support the political objective of a internationally recognised independent state of Palestine without being accused of being anti-semetic/pro-terrorist. A clever PR move by supporters of the State of Israel?

As far as I am concerned Hamas is a terrorist organisation who wilfully antagonises it's neighbour without any regard for the safety or welfare of their own people. Any 'government' that lifts people off the streets, accuses and condemns them without any trial or due process, and then proceeds to hood and shoot them in front of the population, presumably to cower them are in my mind nothing short of monsters, and how anyone can support this is beyond me. As Hamas (unlike the West Bank) is on record as being determined to destroy Israel, and kill every Jew I don't think that any peaceful settlement is possible either now or in the future without a change of government in Gaza. A two state arrangement is the only way for both Israel and Palestine, but while you have a terrorist government this clearly is impossible.

Ben Judah writes in the Sunday Times today he is frequently trolled on Twitter with comments such as "Mate I f**** love Hitler". He states shrill lefties and Islamist hoodies have brought anti-semitism back to the streets of Britain. His article "Bellow away, bigot, You don't scare me" picks out George Galloway's shameful so called "Israel Free Zone" stance which under pins this overt racism towards one group of people. GG might say this is directed at Israel, but he will know full well that the sort of people who espouse this sort of rhetoric would be quite happy to target the Jewish communities in our country irrespective of what their attitudes towards the Israel/Palestine crisis might be. He cynically courts just one group of people, no doubt in his sycophantic mind he can find some justification for the savage Jihadist ISIS cause. Lets not forget that this is the same tosser who pretended to be a cat lapping up milk on national tv. So his judgement is clearly not that great.

It is completely unacceptable for town councils to be flying the Palestinian flag they are there to represent all of the people living in their borough and should not express such partisan views.

Similarly, lets not forget the same rabble who turn up in supermarkets demanding the removal of Israeli produce that sometimes also leads to supermarkets removing Kosher foods as well. Blatant discrimination! The general public is quite capable of making their own decisions as to what products they wish to boycott they don't need these unofficial spokespeople to do it for them.

I have tweeted them - "@Edinburgh_CC Fly Palestinian AND Israeli flags or neither. Show flags together just as they must live together - both must work for peace."

((Twitter name @edincitizen)

Thanks E.

No flags at all Elegran in my view.
Maggiemaybe not a surprise that Bradford Town Hall is flying the Palestinian flag, the council there is almost solidly made up of Asian Muslims. Only glad they are not flying the Isis flag[Galloway would if he thought he could get away with it, the man is seriously weird.]

Here we are. Point 3 does call on all sides to work for peace, but in my view flying just one flag is not calling on all/both sides to work for peace. It is labelling that one preferred side as the one totally "in the right" and the other as totally "in the wrong". Two flags or none would have been politically even-handed, and not a means to further polarise an already volatile situation, and inflame the conflict even more.
In fact the whole report demonstrates the partisanship of the meeting. Not helpful.

"9.2 By Councillor Booth – Flying the Palestinian Flag from the City Chambers
“Council:
1) Notes the continued conflict in Gaza, which has lead to the deaths of 67
Israelis and more than 1800 Palestinians, including many innocent
civilians, and which has included attacks on UN schools which have
been labelled a moral outrage and a criminal act by Ban Ki-moon, the
Secretary-General of the United Nations;
2) Notes the appeal recently launched by the Disasters Emergency
Committee (DEC), comprising 13 UK charities, to help the people of
Gaza, including the estimated 65,000 people who have seen their
homes severely damaged or destroyed and the estimated tens of
thousands who urgently need food, water and medical care;
3) Believes the ongoing conflict is unacceptable, condemns any ongoing
violence and calls on all sides to work for peace and a stable two-state
solution in Palestine;
4) Agrees to fly the Palestinian flag from the City Chambers in a gesture
of solidarity with the people of Gaza wherever this does not clash with
the pre-existing flag flying programme;
5) Agrees to ask the Council Leader to contact the Disasters Emergency
Committee to explore any further measures the Council can take to
support the people of Gaza and support the DEC appeal.”

Thanks for the clarification Elegran. It really does beggar belief that if Edingburgh Council cannot get their act together about deciding what to do, then thank goodness none of them are involved in any peace negotiations between Israel and Palestine.

Always interesting when one sees in action a microcosom of the bigger picture.