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"Rich" pensioners - give us your views

(101 Posts)
CariGransnet (GNHQ) Tue 09-Sept-14 07:08:00

Today a new report ("Retirement Sorted? The adequacy and optimality of wealth among the near-retired") has been released by the IFS saying "Most couples retiring over the last decade appear financially well prepared"

It says the vast majority of couples born in the 1940s have levels of wealth that are more than sufficient to maintain their standards of living into and through retirement. Do you agree?

I've added lots more details below but would love your views asap on the above and also about "generational politics" - whether young people have been harder hit by austerity compared to pensioners and whether later generations will find themselves worse off than those currently entering retirement.

Very grateful for your thoughts!

(The rest of the detail...feel free to read or simply comment on the parags above - oh and "we" is the people who put together the report not GNHQ!)

The research takes two approaches to assessing financial preparedness for retirement. The first approach is to compare the wealth holdings and estimated retirement income of couples with their average earnings between ages 20 and 50. 'Replacement rate' approaches of this type have been used widely before in the UK, including by the Department for Work and Pensions, to assess the adequacy of retirement wealth. The second approach uses an economic model of behaviour over the life cycle to estimate, for each household, how much wealth they would have needed to accumulate in order to expect to maintain a stable standard of living throughout their lives.
Using the first, straightforward approach, we estimate that:
- 80% of couples born in the 1940s have annual gross pension income at age 65 (from state and private pensions) that replaces at least two-thirds of their average annual working-life earnings (adjusted for price inflation). Over 40% have gross pension income in excess of their average real working-life earnings.
- If you also take account of the income that could be generated from other financial wealth holdings (i.e. ignoring housing), 90% of couples would have replacement rates greater than two-thirds, while nearly 60% would have greater income in retirement than average real earnings during working life.
- Taking account of housing wealth as well raises the proportion able to replace more than two-thirds of their working-age earnings in retirement to 98%. We estimate that 84% could replace more than 100% of their average real gross earnings during working life on this basis.
Comparing the level of gross retirement income with working-life earnings is a simple way of assessing the adequacy of households' retirement resources. However, the results are very sensitive to the threshold used to define adequacy (and to the way in which previous incomes are adjusted for price increases).
The threshold used is typically less than 100% replacement to reflect at least three important reasons why one might need a lower pre-tax income in retirement than during working life in order to secure a similar standard of living. First, tax rates are lower as those over pension age pay no National Insurance contributions. Second, costs associated with dependent children are likely to be lower in retirement. And third, there is no longer the need to save to provide a retirement income. However, exactly how much less than 100% replacement is counted as adequate has been arbitrarily chosen in UK analyses to date.
Therefore we have used a novel alternative approach to assess the adequacy of retirement resources which employs an economic model to quantitatively take account of these factors. The model also takes into account that households would have access to means-tested pension credit in retirement if they have low incomes. We find that:
- 92% of couples born in the 1940s have accumulated more wealth than the model suggests they need to maintain their standards of living into and through retirement. The surpluses are substantial on average - the median surplus being over £220,000, which would be enough to produce around £7,000 a year of income if used to buy an index-linked annuity.
- The surpluses are larger for those with higher average lifetime earnings than for those with lower lifetime earnings, and for those who live in London than for those who live elsewhere in England.
- Even excluding housing wealth, 75% of couples have more wealth than the model suggests they need to maintain their standards of living. The median surplus is over £120,000.
These results confirm the overall finding of the first approach that the majority of this cohort has saved 'enough' for their retirement. But the model also throws light on the value of the 'simple' replacement rate method. It suggests that the replacement rates of gross income that households need in retirement in order to expect to maintain a constant standard of living vary considerably between households. One-quarter are estimated to need a replacement rate of less than 40%, while one-quarter are estimated to need a replacement rate of more than 70%.
This suggests that considerable caution should be exercised when using simple replacement rate thresholds to assess the adequacy of households' retirement resources and the impact of government policies on the preparedness of households for retirement.
Cormac O'Dea, a Senior Research Economist at the IFS and one of the authors of the report, said: "The large majority of couples reaching state pension age in recent years have more wealth than necessary to maintain their standards of living into retirement. This is a cohort that has, as it has turned out, ended up saving more than they needed for retirement. The picture for future generations, however, may look quite different."

Gracesgran Wed 10-Sept-14 08:55:14

The only people who can actually have the size of their house affected by the views of others are those who get money from their friends, neighbours and complete strangers (tax payers) in order to live in them. This is certainly not only older people FlicketyB.

I don't think it is unreasonable for those taxpayers to expect there to be rules around how this money is allocated, indeed, I would far rather have rules than go back to the rather Victorian age of people personally deciding who is deserving and who is underserving.

I don't think the problem that needs resolving is about money per se but more about those rules. There seemed to be a consensus of opinion some years ago that those in social housing would have a home for life. Somewhere along the line this has changed to people feeling that tax payers' money should only provide for essential need even if that means giving up you home and moving.

Both arguments have there points but we have not been asked at any time what the national opinion is.

I don't find "our children" to be whingers and moaners, the ones I know are incredibly hard working, supportive and kind, although I do find a lot of the press whinging and moaning. However, I do think it is reasonable that tax payers are allowed some view on how their taxes are spent.

Political parties seem to think less and less about asking us and more and more about telling us.

Aka Wed 10-Sept-14 07:55:07

Your last sentence says it all Flickety and their children expect even more.

FlicketyB Wed 10-Sept-14 07:51:22

Why are people so obsessed with the size of our houses? Many people of all ages live in houses with more bedrooms than occupants. I know working age childless professional couples, single people and even families with children who live in houses that are, by Angus Hanton's definition, over-bedroomed? Why is it only older people who should be restricted in how big their property is? Isn't this ageism?

These whingers and moaners are our children how and why did we bring them up to expect to have everything they want as soon as they wanted it?

Gracesgran Wed 10-Sept-14 00:22:02

... not a repeat ...

Gracesgran Wed 10-Sept-14 00:21:08

durhamjen I did not say, at any point, that you said "all pensioners think the same" but I did say, and it was my comment no a repeat of what you had said, that all pensioners do not think the same and they don't. That means some think in one way and some in another. I even made this clearer by saying There will be as many views among them as there are among those of working age

That does not seem an unreasonable thing to say. Do you really want to carry on picking at this? It was not a criticism, just a statement of fact. I am sorry if you felt criticised.

durhamjen Tue 09-Sept-14 23:09:20

Gracesgran, you criticised what I said. I responded. I did not say all pensioners think the same. There's a big difference between many pensioners and all pensioners.
Don't read the webchat if you do not want to, but do not criticise me for saying something about the webchat when you have not read it.

Gracesgran Tue 09-Sept-14 22:03:34

You seem to be determined to tell me what I should read and that I will then agree with you durhamjen. I notice I have agreed with some things you have said but not with others. Am I not allowed my own opinion?

durhamjen Tue 09-Sept-14 21:51:47

Thanks, Cari.

durhamjen Tue 09-Sept-14 21:51:02

Gracesgran, I was talking about people on gransnet when I said we did not think much of him then. Do a search for intergenerational and you will find his webchat in April. I do not think one of us agreed with him.
When you've read the thread I expect you will agree with me.
Perhaps you should read the full post before you comment.

Lilygran Tue 09-Sept-14 21:43:11

I also thought you did well considering the strength of the opposition. And I think rosequartz is right to remind us that many pensioners spend their entire income and savings on the cost of personal care as soon as they can't manage or the family can't support them to live independently. If they don't have savings, the state picks up the cost. And pensioners (unless on other benefits) continue to pay income tax and council tax.

Gracesgran Tue 09-Sept-14 21:41:45

We did not think much of his ideas then, and I do not think many of us have changed our ideas.

This was the post that I was commenting on durhamjen

You also say in your last post I think his ideas would be much more in line with many pensioners.

I think my reply I don’t think all pensioners think the same. There will be as many views among them as there are among those of working age. is relevant to both these comments both of which seem to be speaking for other "pensioners"

CariGransnet (GNHQ) Tue 09-Sept-14 21:32:49

Durham - very happy to look into this - leave it with us

durhamjen Tue 09-Sept-14 21:30:15

Gracesgran, where did I say that all pensioners think the same? Can't find it anywhere.

durhamjen Tue 09-Sept-14 21:27:56

GNHQ, any chance of having a discussion with John Lanchester who has written a very interesting book about the difference between poverty and inequality? I think his ideas would be much more in line with many pensioners.

Elegran Tue 09-Sept-14 21:04:41

I sat watching it wishing that I had a bit of paper to jot down pointsthat occurred to me to bring up when they paused for breath - then realised that it was all over anyway and too late to get a word in. I might watch it again with the bit of paper to hand - you never know, an opportunity may present itself.

Esprit d'escalier!

CariGransnet (GNHQ) Tue 09-Sept-14 20:58:27

Thanks all - yes a bit outnumbered and so much I wanted to say. But a start hopefully.

Gracesgran Tue 09-Sept-14 20:46:33

I have to agree with you about the use of the term “Pensioners” HildaW

rosequartz You are right in as much as the personal allowance is being brought into line with the personal allowance of those of working age but the sources of income sometimes carry tax relief that working income doesn’t. Pensioners do not pay NI either and this could be continued after pension age allowing the starting point to be brought up to a more reasonable level for those of working age.

No sunseeker the basic is £113.10 a week currently I believe. However, if that was all someone received and they had little savings they would get Pension Credit making that up to £148.35 plus giving you a gateway to other benefits. That’s for people currently retired. What I was saying was the point at which most pensioners gather on the scale of what they have as income most are at about £12,000 including all their income. I don’t think anyone would call that rich smile All as Ana said.

rosequartz Tue 09-Sept-14 20:28:46

You're right, Elegran I got the impression that Cari was outnumbered three to one, if you count the presenter.
She was biased.

Elegran Tue 09-Sept-14 20:25:56

It will apply in 2014-15. I don't know after that. The link above gives details of various tax thresholds and rates. So does this - www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/personal-allow.htm

rosequartz Tue 09-Sept-14 20:12:10

Elegran I think that the Age Related Tax Allowance is being phased out. I hadn't realised that we (if we receive that much pension) are benefiting to the tune of £100 a year. No wonder they are so resentful of us.
Pensioners who have a higher income have to start paying tax at 40% on £32,011 and above then? That is a lower threshold than other taxpayers.

Elegran Tue 09-Sept-14 20:10:33

I got the impression that Cari was outnumbered three to one, if you count the presenter.

rosequartz Tue 09-Sept-14 20:06:08

Cari, you did well! They put two of them up against you, very unbalanced, and one of them that Angus Hanton.

They are not going to let go of what they perceive as an 'inter-generational problem' are they?

Paul Johnson states that pensioners have saved too much money. Really? How many of us have saved too much? We have struggled to save anything much at all, many of us have never had an inheritance. Exactly how much is too much?
He said we have had the benefit of 'windfall housing increases'. Well, who can we look to for that? Was it perhaps the last Labour Chancellor who wanted us to all feel well off, was it the banks and finance firms who encouraged reckless borrowing, was it the financial advisers who said that buy-to-let was the best investment for retirement? If these people are all baby boomers themselves then perhaps the rest of us are guilty by association.
Or perhaps we just thought we were buying a home in which to live.

'Pensioners pay very little tax' ? Really, as I posted above I thought we were subject to exactly the same tax rules as everyone else. We don't pay NI but that is not supposed to be a tax, part of it was supposed to be savings to pay for our pensions that they so resent us receiving.

Kenneth Baker stated that he does not think he should get a free TV licence - that is quite right! as no-one should have to pay for a TV licence.

The reason pensioners have saved and often do not downsize until they need to is because they think that one day they may have to pay upwards of £800 per week for nursing home care. Our over-abundant savings will soon disappear when that happens.

And if we are lucky enough to get away with not needing nursing care, then who will be the beneficiaries when we pop off? Well, the beleagured younger generation of course, who will inherit our vastly over-priced houses if we were lucky enough to buy one, without the benefit of much inheritance, if any, from the generation above us.

Elegran Tue 09-Sept-14 19:59:06

People born between 6 April 1938 and 5 April 1948 can have an income of up to £10,500 (Personal Allowance) before they pay tax. (Those born before 6 April 1938 do a little better - £10,660)

On income above that they pay 20% on income up to £32,010 and higher rate: 40% on income £32,011 - £150,000

Everyone else, born after 5 April 1948 have Personal Allowance of £10,000 before paying tax.

So pensioners benefit to the tune of 20% of £500 - that is £100. Don't spend it all on high living, will you?

From www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/personal-allow.htm

Aka Tue 09-Sept-14 19:52:20

Yes, the State Pension is only about £6,000 a year, if you've paid all your 'stamps'.

Ana Tue 09-Sept-14 19:48:13

I think the figure of £12,000 is the average overall pension, i.e. state plus other, that those who have retired receive.