Housing Benefit for under 25s

It is not their fault that the economy is in a poor state in many areas of the UK.

Of course we should do all we can to help people affected by changes in the country and I agree we often don't. We did not ensure we had new businesses going into mining areas, for instance. We can campaign for suitable support for people while still expecting them to do everything they can for themselves, though.

Well said Gracegran and worth repeating:

^Durhamjen you obviously have deeply held views but you will not persuade people by hitting them over the head with them.

I agree with Ana in that I too feel patronised
a) when you keep telling us to read links
b) by the way you feel that, having read them the only conclusion should be your conclusion.
c) If we have not expressed an opinion you can decry us for not agreeing with yours.

Persuasion is about listening as well as telling and about remembering we are all entitled to our opinion.

It is great that you have strongly held views but I love a conversation. I love to learn but I am not looking for a conversion.^

Ana I'm glad your post provoked this response from Grace it is time it was said. Listening is important and also apologising and recognising when you are wrong. None of us wants to be treated as if we are stupid children who don't understand. I remember a teacher who never forgave DS for knowing it was Theseus who killed the Minotaur when he had said it was Hercules. Teachers are not always right just because they are teachers.

Jess I disagree, these posts are clearly patronising. I'm sorry you can't see that. You can agree with her posts while also understanding how unpleasantly they are worded.

Good post JessM.

Durhamjen thanks for the links. Maybe you could say something like 'here's an interesting link' or somesuch rather than use the word 'need' which some people have interpreted as patronising.

I hope I'm not being patronising making that suggestion

I too feel sorry for the young these days. The idea that all they have to do is move to a different part of the country to find work holds many flaws when it comes to the badly off. I know people who can hardly afford the bus fare to go and sign on, let alone travel further afield to job interviews. And where are they to live, especially if housing benefit is stopped for the under 25s? Even whilst they are getting HB deposits are needed, not to mention finding a landlord who will take in a young out of work person.

Incidentally, I had to do a lot of moving about for DH's job before he retired. I didn't like it. We never knew when we would be told we were going somewhere else, or where that somewhere else was likely to be but there was usually a radius of 150 miles. Hard to settle in a new neighbourhood when you know you may have to move again in a couple of years.

Financially there was no problem though. All moving expenses paid and a bridging loan provided to help us to buy a house before we sold the old one.

My father grew up in South Wales, an area considered deprived back in the 1930s as it is now. There was a scheme where young Welsh lads (dad was 16) were given apprenticeships in the Midlands. They were helped to find accommodation and generally quite well taken care of. Dad was just about to go back home because he couldn't settle when he met my mother and stayed. Not many apprenticeships about these days though.

Thank you for your kind suggestion, petallus. I do not feel patronised at all by it. I have looked through the thread and have only used the word once, so it will not be difficult not to use it again.

I think there are more apprenticeships being awarded at the moment. However, they can only go to people who live at home, because the pay is abysmal, slightly more than pocket money.Slightly better than workfare but better than the previous EMA which has disappeared in England.

Petallus, here's an interesting link about pay rates for apprentices from the gov.uk website.

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

I notice they are going up by 5p on 1st October!
Anyone over 19 who takes an apprenticeship will get the rate for 16-18 year olds for their first year.
So someone aged between 19 and 25 who takes an apprenticeship will not get any housing benefit either if this government's plans go ahead.

As I said much earlier, we need to decide when adulthood begins.

Thanks for the interesting link durhamjen.

Those rates are low, aren't they. As you say, hardly enough to live on if still in the family home. Impossible to pay for accommodation as well.

I was saying to DH the other day how lucky I feel to no longer have a mortgage to pay and to have no job to worry about losing, with an income which is guaranteed come what may.

What wonderful security compared with some of the young these days!

That is a conundrum, the age at which young people are legitimately allowed to vote/marry/drink/gamble/leave school/join the armed forces seems to vary and has no logic or consistency.

Personally I am grateful for any additional information to help make up my mind on a variety of issues and have enjoyed reading your links, durhamjen.
I admit I hadn't thought of all the implications when making the suggestion about community service and benefits. Just what I accused politicians of doing! Oops!

Thank you for your comments, nannyfran and petallus.
I probably look at too many political sites, and make myself really upset. But that's what I do. I do not have a husband to discuss these things with any more, so it stews in my head. I often feel quite helpless.
Some of the stories on False Economy, and even the CAB website are very harrowing. You expect some websites to give stories about homelessness and joblessness, but not the CAB or the YMCA.

So when I come on here I expect to be able to vent my feelings about the situation in this country.

A report on the tax gap. If HMRC was given more resources, tax could be collected and those up to 25 could be given housing benefit which might enable them to move to where the jobs are.
The spare room subsidy could be got rid of, too. I call it the spare room subsidy as the bedroom tax annoys some people, although it is only charged on bedrooms.

Sorry, forgot the link.
www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2014/09/22/new-report-the-tax-gap-is-119-4-billion-and-rising/

It'll fund a lot of the NHS underfunding as well.

I haven't thought this through but what about instead of paying HB to under 25s provide a subsidy to them if they have to move over a certain distance to get a job?

I call it the spare room subsidy as the bedroom tax annoys some people, although it is only charged on bedrooms. Strange one, that. Just because a room is upstairs does it have to be a bedroom? You could call it a tv room or computer room and have a bed-settee there so that when your visitors come it can be converted. What would happen then?

People say nasty things about the Daily Moan but it does often pick up on people who are avoiding paying tax and names and shames them.

This is a bedroom, according to IDS, rose. We have been criticised on here before for calling it the bedroom tax. That's what I meant.
IDS counts any room whether upstairs or downstairs that is big enough to get a bed in as a bedroom. That's why people who are disabled and need a room for all their equipment are being charged the subsidy or tax.

speye.wordpress.com/2014/09/22/bedroom-tax-ids-view-of-bedroom-is-13-the-minimum-size-of-95-years-ago/

As far as I am aware durhamjen IDS does not designate which rooms are bedrooms, the council does.

IDS designated any "spare room" a bed room, so it can be taxed. Some councils have designated a "spare room", used e.g. to store aids for people with disabilities as a study, or dining room. Most councils are so short of cash, they haven't taken this as an option, sadly.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/26/housing-east-london-estate-viability-affordability

I think E15 has been mentioned before on here.
The housing consortium which is buying these buildings is part-owned by Richard Benton, MP. who is the MP that gets £120,000 in housing benefit from the British taxpayer. Obviously not enough for him; he wants more.

You're wrong, Gracesgran, it's IDS who has said that a bedroom is a room big enough to hold a single bed, not the councils. Many councils are trying to go against his rules.

I do not think I have seen mention of him in the news lately. Anyone know where he is?

speye.wordpress.com/2014/09/16/what-is-a-bedroom-there-is-a-minimum-size-and-specification-from-the-coalition/

I know you do not like the man who wrote this, Gracesgran, but the government definition of a bedroom is in the tables in here. Tribunals are supposed to take notice of this, but they do not all do so. Many of them take notice of IDS saying a bedroom is a room that can take a single bed.

Absolutely brilliant, this, and not just for the under 25s. Well done the housing association for supporting its tenants.
speye.wordpress.com/2014/09/26/wow-cc-supports-600-tenants-to-appeal-the-bedroom-tax-cc-all-has/

*I know you do not like the man who wrote this, Gracesgran^

When have I ever commented on him durhamjen?

"I read the article you directed me to and it reads like something out of our worst tabloid papers. That sort of rhetoric will not solve the problem. Looking at the facts, taking them apart and deciding what the real problem is, may."

This is what you wrote about the man who wrote that article, GracesGran, about another of his blogs.

No I did not say it about the man; I said it about one article he wrote. Do try and go for facts durhamjen otherwise it makes discussing anything with you very difficult. I have no opinion about the man. I tend not to have opinions about people I don't actually know. I could only have had an opinion about the article you mentioned in your post made at 19:14 after I had read it.

I have never thought jumping to conclusions very useful.

Nitpicking. The man wrote the article, just like I write these comments and you write what you write about what I say.
Everything we write is a comment on the other person's views. If all we are writing about is facts on the bedroom tax, then we should always agree with each other. Obviously we do not.

So, according to your logic, durhamjen, if any one of us disagrees with or takes issue with what another poster writes then 'we do not like' that poster...

A journalist wrote an article about baby boomers that I disagreed with most profoundly ergo I dislike that journalist.

Two weeks later that same journalist wrote a very moving article about refugees with which I agreed whole-heartedly ergo I like that journalist.

That makes me a very person.

Or is that concept illogical?
Should this be on the philosophy thread?