Gransnet manifesto

If anyone is getting an income on which a working person would pay taxes and NI then I see no reason why they should not pay exactly the same. The total income of the majority of pensioners is going to be below the tax threshold in the next few years and anyone above that level is not being asked to hand it all over - just the same amount as those of working age.

I'm afraid I am not impressed by the "saving hard all my life bit". Savings into a pension are tax free so it is not unreasonable to pay the taxes on the income they provide. I specifically said I would not touch the bus pass at this point I would just roll the other "benefits" into the basic state pension. No one would be taxed specifically on their state pension even if this was done; tax is on the total income.

Yes they are being charged, Gracesgran. There are many people who have brought up their families in council houses, or now housing association houses, who thought they would be able to carry on living in them for the rest of their lives, or until they could no longer manage and decided to downsize. If the houses have more than one bedroom they are having housing benefit taken away from them. That is a charge.

These are people who have been paying what they can and getting housing benefit for the rest because they have not been paid enough for the work they do all their working lives.

Gillybob, I have the choice of catching the bus or going by car into Durham. I catch the bus if I am not going shopping on the way back. If I am going shopping, I go to the park and ride and leave my car there.
How does anyone suggest that we roll the bus pass into the pension? It's not possible. Some people use the bus all the time; others rarely use it. I'm in the middle. If I did not have my buspass, it would be cheaper to drive the car into Durham and park there. A bus pass encourages me to not use my car and I'm a pensioner. Do I not count?

Oh great gracesgran I`ve saved hard all my life for my old age and now I`ll have to lose my bus pass etc as well as pay taxes on my income from my years of hard earned savings and even more National Insurance in addition to my 40 years contributions? Why did I bother? Don't think I`d be voting for your policies I`m afraid.

Nobody is being "charged" for living in the house in which they brought their family up Durhamjen.

They are asking friends, neighbours and other tax payers to pay, from the money they earn, for them to stay where they would prefer. I do think the imposition of the changes has been heavy handed and badly thought out but many of those not claiming benefits are not able to provide their families with the standards that people claiming benefits can expect. It really isn't as black and white as you like to paint it.

The only time we need to define a rich or wealthy pensioner is when we are talking about universal add-on benefits. Putting bus passes to one side why would you not agree to rolling universal benefits into the pension? If you believe all pensioners should an extra £200 for fuel in the winter, above and beyond the basic pension why would you not include it in the basic pension. Anyone with sufficient income will be paying tax and therefore returning some of this.

There should be no age discrimination and it really isn't about rich or wealthy but about a standard pension you can live on if you have nothing else and about people paying tax at the same level as working people (including NI).

Stansgran I agree that we should be raising the personal tax allowance but apparently there are already some signs of unintended consequences from the increases they have done so far. People working close to the personal allowance level are, apparently, beginning to reduce their hours so they don't pay any tax.

What is the definition of "rich pensioners"? If we are not careful we`re at risk of stifling the old imperative of saving up for our old age. eg I`ve worked all my life and always tried to squirrel away some savings no matter how hard it was. No fancy holidays when children young, no fags, little alcohol and generally thrifty. DH has own business. At times our house has been on the line. Self employment is a risky business and sleepless nights have ensued. We`re now financially OK due to a lifetime of struggle and saving. We`ve always paid our taxes. Are we now not to get our pension "add ons"? If increased taxation and reduction of benefits to pensioners is the penalty for our hard work why did we bother? Why would anyone bother to try to set up businesses and create employment for others? The balance between stimulating enterprise and setting benefits is very tricky. Money doesn't come from nowhere. Somewhere along the line someone either has to make and sell something that others want or provide a service that someone wants to buy. The money generated is then taxable. If no one makes or sells the product or service then there`s no money. For any of us. My plea would be for the tax loopholes used by big businesses and v wealthy individuals to be closed

Good idea Pittcity. There is no Vat on nappies I believe which are also pretty essential so why is there on sanitary products?

No VAT on sanitary products, they are a necessity not a luxury. Even at our age the ones for leaky bladders are life savers!! The rate on them is reduced to 5% but this is not enough.

I can't do government manifestos. Would take too many miracles to make it come about. I can do prayers though. Goes like this: Let all the children in the world be well cared for, fed, and protected.

Said it would take a miracle.

All the debate about bus passes makes no sense at all for pensioners who live in areas where there aren't any buses!

local authority provided pensioners with a fixed number of tokens which could be used for all public transport and for local taxis

That ^ would be a good idea. We have areas here that are in outlying countryside (but still with small housing estates) where the last bus leaves at around 5.30pm and the last one to arrive is at around 6.30pm. Not sure about weekends though. There is also only one bus every hour or so (and in quiet times, might be even longer than that) for those people.

All the debate about bus passes makes no sense at all for pensioners who live in areas where there aren't any buses! In the days before the national scheme, my DMiL's local authority provided pensioners with a fixed number of tokens which could be used for all public transport and for local taxis. Two trips to outpatients, as I remember, or half a dozen by taxi to Tesco.

(Gillybob I've often wanted to get that bus every time I see it but use my car to get to that part of the world)
I'm all for child benefit for two children only and a higher personal allowance so that benefits are not given out and then taxed.

Perhaps a mini bus would suffice Elegran not the double decker that currently runs the route. Admittedly in the summer there are probably more fare payers as this is essentially a tourist route (it takes three hours to do a one hour journey but there is no alternative) . My argument was not whether the bus should run at all (of course it should) it was with Durhamjen who said it would stop people using their cars. (incidentally I would hazard a guess that most people using this bus don't have cars anyway but that's by the by).

I can't see why pensioners couldn't pay a token amount of 50p per journey. But it would be a brave politician who suggested it. Guaranteed to lose them the next election I would say.

I do agree with getting rid of the bus pass if the basic state pension is set at a "living pension" level. However, as that would be somewhere between £10,000 and £12,500 I think we could be a long time waiting.

But if there were no bus passes and the pass holders were not travelling, would the X18 be running on schedule as usual, but empty?

I don't agree that a bus pass encourages pensioners "to use the car less" at all durhamjen it just encourages more (free) journeys by bus. My sister travels on the X18 from Newcastle Haymarket to Seahouses via Alnwick and last Friday she was told (by the bus driver) that she was the only fare paying passenger he had had all day and infact some days he has none at all. The journey is almost 3 hours long and calls in at almost every village en route. The bus is usually quite full (it's a double decker) There is no way all of these people would use a car if the journey wasn't free. They just would not have journeyed at all.

How can we afford to continue running services such as these?

I do not think the bus pass should be abolished and the money rolled into the pension. The bus pass encourages people to use the car less. If the money is rolled into the pension all pensioners get it. With the bus pass, those who will not use it do not need to apply for it.

Apart from that, I agree with most of granny23's list.
However, I would also add sorting out the tax system so that those who owe are made to pay. No offshore tax havens, including this country.
No agreement to TTIP. Definitely exempt the NHS from TTIP.
Do away with the bedroom tax. Nobody should have to be charged for wanting to live in the house in which they brought their family up.
Building more affordable smaller houses so that those who want to downsize can do so, thus freeing up homes for families.
Lots more. I'll add them later.
I can think of lots of areas where I would like a referendum, such as assisted suicide.

I think if the bus pass is abolished the bus companies would do what the train companies have done and offer a senior bas card for those of pensionable age. This would give discounted fares, but probably limit hours of availability.

Where any business sees the chance of extra business at quiet times by offering concessions to the older people who bare available to patronise them at those times, they will do so. Anyway if older people receive an increase in Pension Credit to compensate for the loss of the bus pass it gives them more flexibility to spend the money on bus, trains or taxis, as best suits them. A bus pass is of no use to me because I get travel sick on stop start local route buses. However I do have and use a rail pass.

Interesting how many of us want the Universal Pensioner Benefits rolled into the pension. The only one I worry about is the bus pass.

With the dust settling after the referendum I am realising that many benefits which would have followed a YES vote are now at the mercy of the UK political parties. However my desire for these things has in no way diminished. So I am looking for a party to promise 1) an end to WMD on our soil (which also gives a saving of 3 to 400 billion ££, which would be better spent elsewhere) 2) No Fracking - too many risks, investment instead in renewables 3) Commitment to ending/reversing private ownership of our National Health Service. 4) a cut in Corporation Tax for companies whose operations and head office are at least 50 miles from Westminster (or alternatively a premium payable by Companies within that radius). 5) Simplification of the benfits system including an end to all the pensioner add-ons, which should be rolled into the basic pension. 6) a proper constitution which sets out rights and responsibilities of Parliament, Sovereign and People. 7) Votes for all over 16 years of age. 8) Legislation to curb Zero-hours contracts. 9) an end to VAT on Remembrance Poppies and Poppy wreaths. 10) an end to interfering in foreign wars except on humanitarian grounds.

Think that will do for now.

Some excellent suggestions on here, I hope MPs read it!

I would, however, caution against reducing the number of civil servants, that's even more jobs going and less tax and NI being paid in.

I also think the suggestion that someone made on the minimum wage being replaced with a living wage would be one huge step forward as spending would increase.

FlicketyB: I don’t agree on council tax I’m afraid. I think it should be a local income tax. I would get rid of stamp duty however, and charge a Capital Gains tax at the time of sale. This would mean the country would benefit from the rise in the value of houses and may even keep prices down a bit for everyone.

I like the idea of dividing any savings by a formula but I would make it one third one to benefits, one third on the debt and one third on capital projects. You cannot pay this to reduce the deficit as that is a proportion of debt to income but you can reduce the actual debt.

Very thoughtful post altogether.

FlicketyB: I think your version of spare room subsidy is a really good one. It gets over the fact that many people moving into their council house all those years ago thought they had a home for life while recognising that staying in a big family house is not an option other people have as they get older.

I also like your thinking on disability payments. We need to get rid of as many tacked on bits as we can. I often think they must cost as much in administration as they do in helpful payments. Looking at the household income including these benefits will probably come in at some time in the future when they have made the Universal Benefit work with the benefits they have started to incorporate. (Always assuming it is made to work )

FlicketyB: Limiting the child benefit to two children does not solve the problem. People who cannot afford to care for their children should be working and providing for them, with help I agree, hence my suggestion of using the money from child tax credits and child benefit to be removed and the money used to provide wrap around care that any parent can choose to use to enable them to work and work full time if that is what they need to do.

Even with two children just two years apart a mother in a single adult household (and it usually is mothers) can choose to work the minimum number of part-time hours and claim Child Tax Credit for 18 years. This is the best decision many of these women can make in the short term. However, they end up not by setting an example of “we do whatever it takes to keep the family” but “if we play the system we will be OK”. They are unlikely to get a chance to train or aim for anything higher than the level of job they start with so the family will always remain vulnerably poor and the mother’s pension is likely to be very basic. She is very unlikely to be able to pay into or even have the opportunity of a private pension.

FlicketyB : I think all parties are looking to get rid of the Pension Credit. All these credits are hugely expensive to administer.

In some ways my point 4 concurs with your fourth paragraph except I feel the increase (to offset taking the universal benefits) should be for all. I have offset this making all tax (point 5) equal for tax payers of working and state pension age including NI. It is my belief that rich pensioner are the same as rich working age people. There is no argument that I can see.