Ashamed to be human

A significant percentage of meat eaten in Britain is imported from countries who do not have stringent regulations regarding animal welfare.

Re abattoirs - we had one in the middle of the village where I used to live and I got to know some of the slaughtermen. It was explained to me that when animals were being unloaded this was done as calmly as possible. The animals (mostly pigs in this case) were kept from seeing the one in front being despatched or the carcass afterwards in order that they were as unstressed as possible. Stress causes adrenalin production which bunches up the muscles and leads to tough meat. The meat from this abattoir is sold to local butchers and I can vouch that it is very good.

Perhaps this is why Britain has a reputation abroad for good roast meat, which doesn't need fancy sauces and overnight marinades and long slow cooking?

Even Giant Pandas, which we think of as being solely bamboo eaters eat meat when they can get it [and need a certain amount in their diet].

Good posts mishap and papaoscar.
I did hear somebody on the radio the other day, say that the one thing we are not designed to eat is wheat and a few other grains, and that we have not adapted yet internally to digest those things. No mince pies!

Just a couple of snippets.(1) Abattoirs usually (or should) carry out their grim business discretely and with minimum stress: its not commercial sense to do otherwise. (2) A religion that encourages cruelty and blood-lust is not worthy of the name.

Yes - can't imagine that it was all that good for us - but then, life is cheap in the scheme of things.

I imagine one of the risks of eating meat raw would be ingesting parasites.

There are many papers indicating that we are omnivores - you take your pick I guess.

I assume that meat was eaten raw at one time - I see no reason why not. We don't do that now (except for specific meats) but there is no reason to suppose that we did not.

How did nature intend us to eat animals, Mishap? Raw? I bet you do not do that with chicken.
Apparently Tesco is the place to buy your poultry if you want to do that as it has the lowest risk of campylobacter in its poultry.

According to Colin Spencer's research in his history of vegetarianism, he compares mankind with a seventy year old man and says that only for the last 9 days did he become a meat eater, and only for the last six days did he learn to cook meat. So nature did not intend us to eat meat any more than it intended us to fly.

In the local paper yesterday there was an article about two policemen who were sent to humanely kill a deer which had been injured by a car. They clubbed it to death.
They are being internally disciplined but not going to court as there appear to be no photos of the act!

Eloethan, there are 2.5 million people at the ritual, with 300,000 animals being killed, many of them chickens, etc. so there will not be much to store.

The general consensus as far as I can see from the various papers I have looked at is that humans are basically omnivores and that archeological evidence of meat-eating by humans goes back as far as we can study.

In the modern context that does give us a choice as we now know how to ensure adequate human nutrition without meat.

Mishsp Again, you say we are "designed" to be meat eaters. There are varying opinions about this - particularly in relation to the length of the intestinal tract and the fact that several animals with ferocious looking canine teeth are herbivores.

Indeed, there is ambivalence all round in our relationship with non-human animals.

We eat some animals and treat others as substitute humans, sharing our homes with them; we expend great effort saving one species that will then eat other species (who is to say which is the most deserving or valuable?); we are revolted by the idea of eating dog, but not by eating other animals.

None of it makes a whit of sense. I have given up trying to understand it all; I just find ritual slaughter distasteful.

papaoscar I understood there was a point to the slaughter. Something to do with their religion.

There is a certain cultural imperialism in the reaction to the pictures of all those dead animals.

I was as shocked as anyone at the scale of the killing but it's really no different from an industrial abattoir, just that we don't see them. The idea that abattoirs in this country are 'humane' is really just a sop so that we feel better.

I wonder if any non-vegetarians who signed petitions also are disturbed about the millions of turkeys who are about to be dispatched.

At least those buffaloes seemed to have lived a 'free range' life before being killed.

At Easter most of us enjoy eating Spring lamb - a lovely cuddly woolly chap one minute and a tasty Sunday lunch the next.

And then we have the cheek to be revolted when in some parts of Asia they eat puppies!

People can and do live healthily without meat - that is a valid choice. We are designed as meat-eaters - but this does not mean that we cannot do without it with our current nutritional knowledge that can ensure a good protein intake.

I was talking about the basic design. We are not designed as herbivores only; although that does not mean we cannot choose to be so.

I am sure that you are right petallus that a trip round an abattoir would out many of us off our meat-eating; although, as I have said, I personally do very little of it.

I think that the point I am making is that we are as we are - and the nature of the world is undoubtedly about kill or be killed - papaoscar has graphically outlined what goes on in nature. If you are a pet owner, you will know that many of your loved pets are killers by instinct and design.

We cannot hide from all this. But.....I do find it distasteful when animals are killed in a ritualistic way as sacrifice. By all means let us eat animals as nature intended in order to secure our survival - but to kill them for pleasure or atonement is to my mind unacceptable.

Faye My first sentence began "I don't see this thread as racist". What I was trying to say was that it is all very well to get upset about what "these people" are doing but all sorts of cruelties are going on around the world, including in so-called "civilized" countries. I'm sorry you felt I was implying you were a racist - I was not.

Mishap You state that "we are designed for meat eating", as if it were an incontrovertible fact. There are varying opinions about this. It is certainly possible for people to live healthily on a diet that contains neither meat nor fish.

A very disturbing thread, this one, and not for the squeamish. We, the Queen Bee and I, like to think that we love animals and have had cats, dogs, rabbits, chickens and ducks, although now its just one little dog. That lovely little canine is a ratter and has the killing skills of an assassin as regards rodents and birds (the latter - unfortunately).Our other livestock were subject to predators, and our Labradors used to chase small deer and catch rabbits and pigeons which I had to finish off, as I also did as regards our other livestock from time to time. So whilst I like to think that I am not red in tooth and claw, I might just be a little pink and do enjoy my roast chicken and pork chop, but I do love to see fine livestock well-raised, and have no time for cruelty to animalts. Is that a hypocritical attitude? If it is, I can live with it. What I found so sickening about the Nepal buffalo slaughter was the utter pointlessness and cruelty of it all, particularly the enthusiastic public participation. So, yes, at times I am ashamed to be part of the human race.

We don't need all that meat.

I suspect spending a few days doing a tour of our abattoirs would challenge the comfy idea of humane practices and regulations.

I do know that turkeys are poultry!!

I say again - we are designed for meat-eating, and although I do not do much of it, we cannot get away from it; and the means by which animals are now raised and slaughtered here is regulated and is many steps up from the killing fields of nature.

There are many things in nature that I find discomfiting, but we are born to this world as it is, for better for worse.

I still find the details of the original post distressing, as I do fox hunting and hare coursing etc, because the prime aim of these is not nutrition, but we do still have the primitive instinct to hunt.

Ritual sacrifice of all kinds is distasteful to me, both in its execution and its concept.

I posted "these people," are you calling me racist Eloethan. Just because people from a country do terrible things does not mean everyone from that particular country condones it. Why do you think I or anyone else would think that?

I actually think saying people are racist is often to shut people up. I complain often about the absolute cruelty happening in this horrible world. If you are cruel I will protest, I don't really care who you are or where you are from.

On this thread we are posting about the Nepal devotees slaughtering as many as 250,000 animals. Don't think for a moment that many of us have forgotten all the other cruelty happening in other countries, including our own. I have also protested about the export of live animals in Australia. It's disgusting and just as cruel, the animals often get hacked up while still alive when they are exported to countries where this type of thing is allowed. While I am at it, let me tell you I have also protested about the treatment of refugees in Australia. I also signed petitions against slavery, hunting whales, treatment of homosexuals etc etc. I recently received an email from one of these Change.org organisations saying I am one of the people who sign the most petitions. There is much to protest about and signing petitions and protesting does make a huge difference.

I realise I misquoted when I was trying to remember and while researching I found this link which adds a little more I think

www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628950.400-the-link-between-devaluing-animals-and-discrimination.html

The quote was

"AUSCHWITZ begins whenever someone looks at a slaughterhouse and thinks: they're only animals," wrote the philosopher and social commentator Theodor Adorno

Eleothan and durhamjen, agree with you too. It seems to me that problems begin when we set up an animals vs human divide and people get upset if you mind animals being killed because they assume you are prioritising them.
I have always thought that WE ARE ALL ANIMALS and I am ashamed of my particular species because of the way so many of them behave. I do not condone the killing of any animal, human or otherwise. For meat or otherwise. But I also don't condemn those who do kill. Who knows what any of us might do under some circumstances.

papaoscar that's a goog idea. We can't do an awful lot about what is happening in Napal except express horror and sign a petition. What we can do more effectively is try to improve the lot of animals in our own country.

Good posts eleothan and durhamjen.

I didn't read the phrase 'these people' as referring to the whole Nepalese nation or the Hindu faith - but to the men (and women?) actually involved in the slaughter. I would put anybody killing for the sake of blood lust into this particular 'these people' bracket. The petition is to the Nepal Government as they are the ones with the power to do something about it. I've also signed petitions against whaling without blaming the whole Japanese nation.

It would surely be impossible for 2,000 or so carcasses to be dissected and distributed or stored (where). There must be a huge amount of wastage.

I don't see this thread as being racist but I don't like the term "these people" as if the way they behave is completely divorced from how other people behave in the world. The Spanish have their bull fighting. We still have dog fighting, hare coursing and fox hunting (all illegal but apparently still happening). Rhinos are butchered for their horns, which are mistakenly believed to have healing qualities, elephants are killed for their ivory, baby seals are clubbed to death, whales are harpooned - the list is endless. The Nepal slaughter is a hellish spectacle but perhaps seems more so because there are hundreds of animals in one place and the slaughter doesn't occur behind closed doors.

My husband is from a Hindu background (although, other than being a quite strict vegetarian, is not practising) and he thought this Nepalese custom was pretty horrific and not one that many people of Indian origin would wish to follow. However, he and I both feel that people of all ethnicities and cultures have committed acts of barbarity against each other and other animals and nobody should feel too self-righteous.