Ashamed to be human

Yes, Ana, it is better than being left to rot. I do not see your point. Lots of people on here were saying it would be better if it was for food. I looked and found out they have feasts, and it is not left to rot. I read an article from an Indian or Nepalese newspaper which said that the heads were buried in a pit, and the meat either eaten at the feast or sold over the border in India.
Jane, I was singling out Mishap because she said she didn't eat much meat, just fish and poultry. The last time I looked turkeys were considered poultry.
The numbers of turkeys killed in this country in the runup to Christmas is just as obscene, as, in some cases, is the way they are killed.
I do not see how hanging a turkey up by its legs and stunning it before it has its throat cut is considered to be better for the animal.
We do it every year, not every five years. How about the British public having a couple of years off? You might find you enjoy it more.
Just because you will enjoy eating your turkey, Jane, is no reason for me not to say anything about it.

Religion, eh?

Yes, truly dreadful images. Perhaps God is a buffalo and will call those who did these terrible things to account. In the meantime perhaps we should try and redress the balance a little by trying to be kind to animals. They have little choice in their lives, after all, whereas we do.

Yes I eat fish and poultry - I am not sure what that signifies.

Two images that haunt me (though not from this article). One of a child, held in his father's arms, with his eyes wide and his hands over his ears. I believe that a child instinctively recognises cruelty but 'culture' can condition him or her to accept it. The second photo, of the aftermath, a widescreen shot of thousands of carcasses and blood soaked earth, but in the distance amongst the bodies a single standing calf.

A complete betrayal of both infants.

I know I said I wanted this thread to die a quiet death but I'm haunted by this subject which I came across by chance last night. I don't want to say any more.

Don't apologise nightowl, you were absolutely right to bring this to our attention. I despair of when the mindset of humankind will step into the 21st century.

I'm not sure why you're singling out mishap, durhamjen.

Like a lot of other Gransnetters, I'll enjoy eating turkey on Christmas Day.
Now that my local butcher has closed, I'm not sure where I'll buy it from.
But I'm not going to feel guilty because I haven't personally supervised the killing.

You said that the meat was eaten and the hides used, durhamjen. As a vegetarian you obviously wouldn't approve, but surely it's better than leaving it to rot?

There again, as Faye says, how could anything be salvaged after the way the animals were put to death?

I don't think people in this country pretend animal slaughter doesn't happen. At least in this country it's humanely done.

10 million turkeys to be slaughtered in this country over the next three weeks, Mishap. And all you eat is fish and poultry.
At least in Nepal they see what happens. Most people here pretend it isn't happening because somebody else does it for them.

We'll I finally looked at the article and saw the absolute cruelty at the way these poor animals are hacked at until they die. How on earth are the animals eaten, there are thousands of them, they would be rotting before they could be cut up. I am shaking with anger at these people. This is not right to hack away and butcher a defenceless animal, I don't consider any animal humanely killed when it's going to be eaten but they are not killed like this. Did some posters not see the animal having his neck cut into with a knife while he was held by a rope. This barbaric torture is to bring worshipers good luck, FFS. I wonder about the thinking of people who condone this behaviour. I feel very sorry for the activist in that country having to watch this barbaric cruelty. I am still shaking!

Nightowl - your post of 17.36 expressed my views exactly.

Petallus I know rabbits are kept in appalling conditions and Compassion in World Farming is trying to change this, although keeping tame rabbits free range has multiple problems.

Pressure, public awareness and opinion are changing things fast in how we breed, keep and slaughter our food animals. Battery cages, veal crates and sow stalls are largely eradicated in the UK. We've come long way, but there's a lot further to go.

Personally I don't eat fois gras and try to eat only eat free range meat and buy British milk - preferably organic outdoor. This means not eating restaurant chicken which can be difficult as it's the meat of choice. Try asking where your chicken comes from next time you eat out!

I like both those quotes nightowl

I haven't heard that one annie but it's true.

Jewish author Isaac Bashevis Singer in a story "The Letter Writer" said "In relation to [animals], all people are Nazis; for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka". I don't think a non Jew would be able to say such a thing without causing great offence and I think the fact that he is Jewish gives his words great power.

petallus I oppose all those practices as well as far as I can. I think it's important to keep fighting and not simply throw up my hands in despair thinking there are so many such issues that it's not worth bothering. We can all do our little bit to make a change. As someone famous said 'be the change you want to see in the world'.

Mishap and nightowl, excellent posting thank you. We've come a long way since 1945 in terms of trying to allow for and understand other cultures. Nevertheless, the issues around Nazi beliefs and whether you might, for instance, have decided those needed to be opposed in 1939 still stand.
And relating to this discussion, which philosopher was it who said 'when we start saying they're only animals, Auschwitz begins?

And that's not to mention veal and force feeding geese.

What about the quality of life of the animal before death?

Battery farming is allowed in this country.

I read the other day that we buy rabbit meat produced elsewhere in the EU. Rabbits are piled into cages, one on top of the other, in hugely overcrowded conditions (I saw a picture) Up to fifty per cent die before they are killed for food.

As for the method of death, I have read accounts of the terror of animals as they wait to be slaughtered in our abattoirs.

Criticising religious or cultural practices is not the same as racism. People chose their religious beliefs or simply accept the cultural norm and a religious group does not necessarily comprise people of the same race. Race, on the other hand, is an accident of birth. However, it is a vague and non-scientific concept and has become almost completely meaningless by the twenty-first century given the endless migrations of groups of people over the millennia. That said, racism does still exist. Tackling this foul prejudice is not helped by conflating Hinduism, Islam or any other religion with race.

Although I couldn't bring myself to look at the link, I've read all of the thread and signed the petition.
We are carnivores, and our teeth are designed for us to be as such. It's our own choice whether we remain carnivores or become vegetarian. In this country animals are bred for food and are (hopefully) slaughtered in accordance with our laws.
Senseless cruelty indeed.....

Right, nightowl I see why this is causing revulsion. It's all in the way that animals are killed, and this scene is pretty nasty all round.The method of death for all animals matters [more than death itself] and that goes for humans too.

The BBC website says that the bodies are 'buried in a pit'. Who knows?

rosesarered the issue for me is the fact of huge numbers of animals being hacked to death by men wielding huge swords (which in theory could be a very quick death but in reality means several strokes often being needed to fell a large and untethered animal like a buffalo), while all the other animals witness this over an extended period. The sights, sounds and smells of terrified animals and blood spattered swordsmen are said to be overwhelming with 'wide eyed children' looking on. And whilst I welcome the fact that the meat and hides are used I have read that the numbers are simply too great for all of them to be used before the heat makes them useless. The authorities have raised the fear of anthrax from so many carcasses lying in the open.

People may think that as the animals are going to die anyway, the method of their death doesn't really matter. I've never been able to see any merit in that argument, otherwise why do we have animal welfare laws in the first place? Why do some of us bother protesting against animals being shipped from the UK across Europe and beyond to die in conditions that would not be permitted in the UK? Why do we oppose bullfighting? The bulls feed the poor and provide some entertainment so why does it matter that they are tortured in the bullring before their death? I can't be so casual about animal suffering, wherever it takes place. And I agree that we get many things wrong in the UK and I oppose them as well.

Ah, just now I have read all of the postings, and it seems that the animals are not wasted at all, both meat and hide is used.

Again [not having seen the link, ]is it the way in which they are killed?

Am inclined to agree with petallus's posts on this subject.Aside from the ethics of killing animals [and not eating them] the end result for the animals is the same as the thousands of animals killed elsewhere for meat.
Not having looked at the link, I don't know if the animals are dogs/cats/goats or what. Is the problem ethics, or simply that animals are killed?

I agree; I come onto gransnet to find out about things and I'm grateful that this has been pointed out to me.