The Bristol mother and baby

I really do not know whether anyone is to blame for this tragedy, or whether anythihg might have prevented it.

I would hazard a guess that, in this world of specialisms, the midwives were probably not well-versed in the risks of mental illness.

I am sure that there will be some sort of enquiry and let us hope that this will highlight any changes needed and that these will be passed on to other maternity units.

If the system there is as barmy as it is here, then getting another specialist to see a patient involves going back through the GP. Once upon a time you just had a chat with your colleague over lunch in the hospital cantten and they would hop up to the ward to give an opinion.

According to local news, she had been assigned a mental health nurse as well, apparently, but probably not for 24 hours a day. Apparently she had seemed happy and positive and they were both looking forward to parenthood.

I asked myself the question: If I had been in Bristol on that very cold evening and seen a young woman walking through what must have been a fairly busy area - and it is quite a distance from the hospital to the gorge - dressed in slippers and carrying a tiny baby, would I have stopped and asked if she was all right? Or just thought she was going somewhere in a hurry, or was a bit eccentric to dress like that?
Unless she looked distressed, I would probably not have done.

Like you, Rose I would probably have looked and wondered, but unless there had been obvious distress I would have done nothing. I would now feel absolutely shattered to think I had allowed something so awful to happen, but we can all be wise after the event. There is an awful lot of mud-slinging going on, and I think we would be wise to wait until the full facts are known and just let our thoughts be with the poor parents who have lost a lovely daughter and a grand-daughter they never had the chance to love, there is a an enormous amount of sadness there, which is difficult to understand.

Rose- I've been wondering exactly the same thing. I think the only situation I'd stop was if I saw a small child on its own but I don't know

Not doing anything to prevent is not the same as "allowing". Allowing is a positive choice. Not preventing is anything from ignorance of any problem to inertia from not knowing what, if anything, needs to be done. And then there is failure even if one did try to do something useful.

Speculating and being angrily speculative is not helpful, as others have said. There is nothing we can constructively do right now but wait for information.

...and I thought we were allowed to rant on Gransnet.

Obviously not.

Never mind ranting. We mustn't speculate, discuss or have an opinion.

No! We must contain our emotions and use them to effect useful change.

Not sure how that's going to work, but it sounds high-minded enough to bear repeating...

If you look at the news photographs there is one of the mother walking past nurses in the corridor, they are standing at a vending machine, if they had only turned they would have seen this woman in slippers about to leave the hospital.

I don't think there is anything wrong in feeling or expressing reasonable anger, frustration, sadness or shock at bad things that happen. You can be angry and frustrated without necessarily or overtly blaming an individual, or in this case, mental health team/maternity hospital/social workers/whichever applies. People experience a wide range of emotions and it's in places like Gransnet, surely, that they can be safely aired without censure, unless they contravene laws.
My anger was, admittedly, a rather knee-jerk response, and I concede that the full facts aren't known and might never be by the public. However, it was partly borne out of previous experience of my own family's and others I know, where there have been repeated instances of being seriously and sometimes dangerously let down, neglected, sidelined and feeling as if the world doesn't care because it's mental illness - and unless something dreadful happens, usually a death, nobody seems to want to listen. I am not saying that that IS the case, but that is how it seems, often, when you're on the receiving end of lack of appropriate care. You feel desperate and so alone. Hence the anger and frustration. We've seen it happen all too often.

At the same time, yes, shit happens, even with the best care. I don't think though that I'd be able to avoid feeling burning anger along with the deep grief and pain, if it was my lovely daughter and granddaughter at the bottom of the cliff. And it so easily could have been.
There, but for.....

Yes, but would they have thought she was actually leaving? It's not as if she walked out in an overcoat with a suitcase. If they'd seen her they might have thought she just wanted a breath of air or perhaps she was popping outside to see someone who'd gone out for a fag? It might have been a bit strange but would it have been odd enough for anyone to stop her?

I should of course have added: Unless they contravene laws or offend others! Clumsily put, but it's late and I'm off to bed. That's my excuse anyway!

Oh, one last thing....at the risk of repeating myself....Charlotte was known to have schizophrenia and severe depression. If that doesn't flag up the need for round-the-clock monitoring, I don't know what does. It's not good enough to say that she was ' doing well'. You cannot compare her to a mother who doesn't suffer from serious mental health problems.

My postnatal care, 30 years ago, after DD2 was born with serious abnormalities and health problems was badly lacking in many respects, but we were hardly allowed out of anyone's sight for more than a few moments unless I was in my room. If I went for a bath, I would take her with me to the bathroom in her little fish tank because I didn't want to be out of her sight. Within minutes, there would be frantic knocking at the door by a nurse, demanding to know where my baby was. I found that intrusive and patronising at the time - didn't they know I loved her dearly and wouldn't hurt her for anything? - but later on, I understood why they had to do it.

Ok, ok....I'll see meself out....;)

Many years ago a young single mother was prevented from leaping off a balcony in the Maternity Wing (several floors up) where I had just produced DS1. Everything had been put in place and she was due to live-in as support for an older man who was happy to employ her with her child. She seemed happy with the arrangement and was chatty with the other Mums. At the time n-one could have predicted that her mood could have changed so quickly even tho she was known to be vulnerable.
I think what I am trying to say is that dreadful things sometimes happen, sometimes they are prevented. No-one WANTS these things to happen.

I know mothers are able to pop outside for a chat/fag/breath of air but do they normally take their new-born babies with them in winter?

They'll only be dressed in nursery clothes won't they?

Good post, ogm.

I believe this poor girl was being monitored and had extra mental health care, but short of locking her in her room (surely illegal) or having someone sit with her 24 hours per day then I don't think she could have been stopped from leaving. However, I do wonder why she was able to take the baby from the nursery without questioning from nursing staff.

This is such a tragic case that it is hard to know how to feel. I alternate with immense sadness for this poor lady her baby, and her shattered family, anger and incredulity that no body, knowing her particular mental issues, didn't think to be just a little more vigilant, particularly as she was staying in hospital longer than usual because of these difficulties, and that nobody noticed her either leaving the hospital with this tiny baby, both completely inappropriately dressed for the climate in early December. Even if she had been going out for some air, surely somebody would have noticed this inappropriate dress and approached her? As she was walking through the streets surely someone noticed her walking with this tiny mite in the flimsiest of attire and approached her and then again rung the police. I know I would even at the risk of being 'busy'
It's a awful tragedy and so easy to be wise etc.

Rosequartz, I agree with your post but I wonder if the baby was with her mum, rather than in the nursery. Her partner had just left, he wasn't worried about her and I understand she was about to feed her baby. I've read she was in a side ward, to be expected given the length of her stay being linked to her mental health history.

Thanks to all the posters who have shown empathy for the mother, baby and their families. It's good to see so many are also empathising with the medical and social work staff involved, I'm sure they're devastated.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Have English hospitals gone back to keeping newborn babies in nurseries away from their mothers? When did that happen?

nigglynellie, the baby was well wrapped up in blankets.

As for the mother being 'inappropriately dressed' for the time of year, I have seen men in shorts and women with bare feet and flip-flops over the past couple of days when it has been very cold where I live!

I don't think anyone outside the hospital can be accused of anything here. People are free to dress as they choose, and from the CCTV footage I saw nothing would strike a passer-by as being amiss.

Well, I'm sure you know better than me Ana, so we'll have to agree to differ.