American torture

I don't give Labour much credit but I am pleased to see Labour are getting behind the need for a judge-led enquiry, or at least for Blair, David Miliband , Jack Straw and to be fair others to be called before the Intelligence and Security Committee. They are at least looking like they are ready to accept any responsibility,, if indeed it is due to them.?

I think Yvette Cooper has promoted the need for a judge-led enquiry and now it would be very difficult to go back on her word.

It is going to possibly be very embarrassing for the UK and particularly for Labour Ministers at the time and for those who have had the misfortune to follow on.

It's about time the Chilcot enquiry was published too, although I think it will be a whitewash as there have been so many redactions .

Teflon Tony indeed but will this finally be his and others undoing?

I agree that other countries are also guilty but they have seen what non-compliance with the wishes of the US brings. Call it US bashing if you like, but it's a fact that the USA has a history of destabilising other countries, often subverting democratic processes and causing social disorder.

I agree with all those who feel that torture of any description is just wrong and can only result in further barbarism.

I think it naive to imagine that this report has told people - particularly those in the countries affected - anything that they didn't know or strongly suspect already. The film footage of Guantanamo prisoners being transported round the prison compound on stretchers surely indicated something was amiss. The later reports that prisoners on hunger strike were being violently - and illegally - force fed was a further example of what was happening. The report merely confirms that these torture techniques were not carried out by "rogue elements" in the CIA but were sanctioned at a high level. Those in government may not have known exactly what techniques were being used by surely suspected what "enhanced interrogation" meant and that the term might give rise to further "enhancement".

One paragraph in the Daily Mail is surely enough to make anyone's blood run cold:

"One detainee was so brutalised he was left unable to speak and on life support. Another, chained almost naked to the floor, died from hypothermia while a third was hung by his arms from an iron bar for 22 hours."

I agree with MiceElf that the response of some commentators is shocking.

Fox News' National Security Analyst K.T. McFarland argued that the techniques were both "legal and justified" by the 9/11 terror attacks.

This was backed up by Out Numbered host Andrea Tantaros, who said:

"The United States of America is awesome, we are awesome," ... "... This administration wants to have this discussion to show us how we’re not awesome."

These are the sort of juvenile comments being made by the right wing media in America. If anything is likely to incite extremism, it is surely this attitude.

The Blair government's involvement in extraordinary rendition should also be investigated and reported upon. Unfortunately it seems that the UK also has a history of facilitating such barbarous behaviour and - as the report re Brazil has indicated - has even trained military dictatorships in the most effective torture techniques.

Jings sorry, I didnt mean that the victims of the nazis were in any way guilty, far from it, what I was trying to say, somewhat clumsily, is that blaming all Muslims for 9/11 is as bad as blaming all Germans for what happened in WW2. I too, am getting sick of the USA bashing, and they certainly didnt act alone, surely other European countries were as involved as we were? What I dont like is the vociferous USA spokesmen with the George Bush attitude of if you arent against it, you must support it. He was a spectacularly stupid man, and although I originally had very high hopes of Tony Blair and new Labour, I was soon disillusioned. On the basis of judging a man by the company he keeps, Tony was too matey with George W Bush, and when he started having family holidays with Berlusconi.........

They don't refer to him as "Teflon Tony" for nothing Nonu

I heard Blair is unlikely to be questioned about what he knew.
There"s a surprise then,not really good enough !

make no mistake the U.K are probably just as guilty as the U.S.A we are just better at covering it up. (after all we've been at it longer) War even a just war is messy and cruel. Atrocities will have been committed by both sides. I think its naive to think that these sort of atrocities are not committed by 'our side' I think where ever or when ever there are wars, now or in the future, torture will be used.

Our so-called "war on terror" has as its aim the creation of civilized societies that do not indulge in barbarism. Torture is barbarism. This is called shooting yourself in the foot; or pots and kettles maybe.

We do have to find ways of resisting barbarism; indulging in it ourselves is not the way forward.

Yes, it is hard; yes, we feel angry with people who perpetrate these dreadful acts; yes, getting information is critical. There are no easy answers; but torture is not the route to pursue.

Listening to what was done to these people - some of whom were as innocent as you or I - is perfectly horrifying.

I shudder to think what our involvement was - I cannot bear to know.

Exactly, whitewave.

It doesn't do to get side tracked as to what nationality committed this crime. The point is that torture is being carried out, and where ever this occurs we should strongly condem it.

I do get pissed off with anti-American examples of how barbaric they have been again. Look behind the reporting and think about the 'allies' who have trained them in torture techniques, or been first off the blocks with their eagerness to trade ammunition and weapons with rebels who become terrorists, and then get captured and tortured. Where do American citizens' guns and rifles get made? It's all much closer to home. Willingness to condone torture and turn a blind eye when it's happening reflects a violent society. America shouldn't torture or bear arms - we shouldn't help train them or sell them the weapons.

Hissy-fit over now MiceElf. Apologies for any slight derailment of your OP.
Just to clarify, my first sentence of last post was a genuine comment of thanks.

ffinochio I am most certainly not anti American, having very good American friends and admiring a lot of American culture. Indeed I am in admiration of this administration having the courage to investigate and publish this report. And I agree with those above who have remarked that anyone in the UK who sanctioned extraordinary rendition should also be named with the evidence of what they knew set out in full.

My OP was about my reaction to those who sought to justify the torture.

ffin we are able to distinguish between the politicians, secret service and the military and ordinary folk in USA, the same as we can in the UK. Of course MI6 should come clean but they won't - we have a different system here that does not allow for transparency.

MiceElf Yes, needed that nudge to clarify and put me back on track and regain objectivity.

Just recently there has seemed to be a drip-drip-drip of anti-American feeling on here, and as I have two wonderful American grandchildren and quite a big extended American family, it does get somewhat tiresome.

The problem with supporting torture is where does it begin and end?

International law does not allow for torture by any state under any circumstances. This is for the very reason that I have outlined above. It is an outrageous act which degrades the perpetrator and those who look kindly on those perpetrators.

Wasn't it Ghandi who said "an eye for an eye means a world full of blind people".

Torture is proven to be unproductive in most cases, I am sure there was some useful information obtained but on the whole it doesn't work.

I am sure there are many drugs which can be used to gain information.

And for those who do advocate torture - how much information was obtained, and how many individuals were prosecuted?

Did the end justify the means?

soon I don't advocate 'loving and caring' for suspects, just not torturing them.

ffinochio as the OP I was careful to say 'many' American comentators. We all know that the spokespersons wheeled out to defend the actions of politicians and the army or other powerful institutions will take a hard line. These are the ones who have been on our screens - Channel 4 News last evening, for example. That's not American bashing.

I also find it interesting that the term 'high minded' has become an insult on GN. There is nothing high minded about condemning torture. As was noted above it is forbidden by the Geneva convention and I find it unbelievable that anyone could could justify it on any grounds whatsoever. Self evidently, it doesn't work, but even if it did, to repay violence with violence and one wrong with another will simply lead us into barbarity.

It was a rhetorical question, soon.

Pisses me off all this American bashing on GN.

They are guilty ffinnochio.

If a person has hurt you, it doesnt mean that you should hurt them back.
It just escalates a problem.
You should carry on loving and caring about them, and ultimately you may be able to win them round that way.
Some will never be won round, but others can be.
There are some it is obvious that you cant quite early on [personally I think ISIS is on this category]. But they still shouldnt be tortured if captured.

A light needs to be shone into the darker corners of UK involvement/complicity re. extraordinary rendition. It's not just the Americans.

If one makes it possible that someone is tortured, but stands back without getting their hands dirty, are they not also guilty of it?

Marty having read your profile, your agreement means a lot to me.