Is the NHS safe in Tory (or Labour) hands

ayse It is a fallacy that the NHS makes a 'profit' that can be ploughed back into the service, which goes to private companies when services are contracted out.
If the NHS provides the service in-house as it were, then the NHS pays the costs of that service out of the money provided by the Treasury. There is no profit, which can be defined as the fee charged for a service, less the costs of providing that service.

The idea of contracting out services came about because politicians looked at the costs of providing a service, and thought that they could pay a private company to provide it more cheaply, by paying staff less for example. There is also the question of transfer of risk.

So in that sense, the money saved by the Government paying less for a particular service, by contracting out, could be ploughed back into the NHS. If pigs flew, of course.

The problem with contracting out services is not that the companies make a profit - all companies have to make a profit, or they wouldn't exist.
It is more a problem of ethos - that private companies would have something other than the well being of patients as their main priority.
But you could argue that the ethos of the NHS has been eroded irreparably by the target-setting ethos that has been imposed on NHS employees anyway.

Just to be clear, I'm not in favour of contracting out to private companies. I would much rather the NHS was well-managed and well-funded and staff felt proud to work for it.

Rosequartz People in receipt of 'good' pensions already pay tax on those pensions. National insurance is an employment-related tax, funded by employers as well as employees.
To tax people in the basis of their age would be a novel idea and could almost certainly be challenged as age-discrimination.

Most people use the NHS the most at the beginning and end of their lives - would you place an extra tax burden on the parents of young children, or those suffering a terminal illness in middle age?

I read something earlier today about someone who was waiting in an A&E at the weekend, it was packed with people who were vomiting, forcing some people to wait out in the car park because they didn't want to catch it if it was a virus.

Now I don't know if they were vomiting because they had a virus or because they were drunk, but either way, to my mind, they should not have been in A&E.

DH says my middle name is Mug but honestly didn't think I had any choice back then, know the system better now!

loopylou I'm so impressed that you were kind enough to go to all that trouble for someone you barely knew. I realise it was more or less forced on you but I'm sure some people would have just refused.

If I was deemed to be over a certain income level, I would willingly pay towards the NHS. I am now over 70. I remember when I 'retired' at age 60 I was no longer required to pay NI, yet I carried on teaching, sometimes full time then later supply work. for 4 more years. This didn't make sense. I am tired of being made to feel guilty because I am elderly. As has been said on GN many times. we still make many valuable contributions to society.
I think a lot of today's problems are down to political interference, attempts to save money, a total lack of thinking things through, unconsidered consequences. Just look what they have done to education!
(But they would have to spend it on the NHS)

Had a long discussion about this with a friend who's a GP, and certainly the lack of care in the community is a major factor, Royal United Hospital in Bath has 12 hour trolley waits today, Gloucester and Cheltenham hospitals closed to admissions.

Another friend's 2 year old GD had to be admitted to a hospital 80 miles from home because of no beds, thankfully she's now back home.

Gillybob sadly this isn't at all unusual in my experience, the patient says my daughter, son, neighbours etc will look after them and then when Social Services are needed urgently that person is low priority because the daughter, son etc are caring for them.

30 years ago that happened to me when I found a very elderly lady, whose son lived in Australia, had fallen on a bridle path and broen both wrists. I only knew her by sight, had never spoken to her in my life but because my details were taken it was assumed I was next of kin. It took me 7 weeks to get Social Services to sort it out, during which I had to drive 6 miles three times a day, shop, clean, cook etc whilst looking after a young family. Doesn't seem to have changed much

White wave

It's been spoken of for a while but has had very little media cover, not bad news I suppose so no mileage in reporting it.

It's a proposal that is going to hopefully be put in place in April and it is about joining up health and social care. As a lot of people make comments about it I thought they might like to read about something that is actually being done.

Anna. Thank you .

This is the most recent article I can find with a quick google, POGS but at least it explains what it is.

www.england.nhs.uk/2014/09/04/ipc-prospectus/

I find it terribly sad that some elderly people never see their family from one week/month/year to the next Elegran and that some old people are looked at as a burden by their own flesh and blood, which is shameful. On the other hand, I do think that hospitals and social services tend to take advantage when they see that an elderly person does have someone who cares about them and just assume that you can drop everything to give 24 hr care. Before my grandma left hospital last year, social services came to speak to her (in hospital) without anyone present and she told them quite happily that I would be there for her every need and they allowed her home on that basis. It took me quite a while to get a care package in place where carers call in to see her during the day.

What is it about?

INTEGRATING PERSONAL COMMISSION not INTEGRATE PERSONAL COMISSION

I don't know how to do it but perhaps somebody could put a link up to:-

'INTEGRATE PERSONAL COMMISSION ' which starts hopefully in April.

It has been spoken of by Jeremy Hunt and NHS chief executive Simon Stevens but hasn't been covered by the media very much.

It could be a good move .

The budget for social care has been cut let alone convalescent care. I have an elderly aunt who was taken straight back to hospital by the caring and professional ambulance driver who found that her heating had broken down, and thus he said that he was not prepared to discharge her to her home. So, technically she was a bed blocker ( horrid ugly term). She lives alone with support, but that is no good when you have no heating and are almost immobile. Delayed transfer of care is a better term than bed blocker, at least the first term sounds as if it is the fault of the care provider, not of the patient.

Delayed transfer of care is an awful term!
A person then sounds like a bag of potatoes!
Never mind.

Sounds like Social Care should be given a lot more money.

And you are stretched almost to breaking point with all you do for your family, gillybob. They are lucky to have you, and that you still have the stamina to do it. so many older people live alone, away from their families and not in a community that can help them.

Complaining that older people are "bedblocking" when there is nowhere for them to go, and no-one to keep an eye on them, is a catch-22 situation.

Do they think that everyone has a family who can leave work to spend 24 hours a day with them, or the money to check into a nursing home to convalesce?

Yes I do Elegran

Sorry for cutting and pasting, but otherwise my post would have made no sense at all.

A lot of the "old" people in hospital did not (for instance) turn up at A&E, when they were younger and more capable, with minor problems that they could have fixed for themselves, or taken to a GP. Did I read on another thread that this accounted for 31% of A&E attendances?

If they are in hospital, it is usually either for things that can't be fixed as outpatients, or because it is not safe for them to be discharged yet to an empty house. Are those who complain of them "bedblocking" saying that it would be better for them to be sent home just to be readmitted as emergency cases a fw days later? Do they think that everyone has a family who can leave work to spend 24 hours a day with them, or the money to check into a nursing home to convalesce?

As someone was saying, what happened to convalescent homes?

I agree Anya and it's not as if they didn't know they were going to have a bigger aging population.

DC seemed to be blaming all the extra people going to A & E on PMQs. Never the politicians fault is it?

I'm personally sick and tired of hearing that the problem is due to an 'aging population' - perhaps we should all be euthanised?

No one can help getting old, but what about those whose illness are due to their lifestyle?

I agree Eloethan, delayed Transfer of Care (DToC) is the correct term

Sorry about that, I was going to say that elderly people who through no fault of their own are "trapped" in hospital should not be referred to as if they are inanimate objects.

I don't like the term "bed blocker" - words can be used to de-humanise,
and the word "blocker" seems to me to subtly reinforce the increasingly popular notion that elderly people are problematic.







Elderly people who through no fault of their own are

I don't believe the problem with nurses is that it has become a graduate profession - we need those skills. As I understand it is as Gillt57 says - they have cut the number of training positions available. Who made that decision?

The cut in the money going to the local councils is also a big problem as it has led to a cut in the social care services. I am not completely sure that care at home is always appropriate. Good convalescent care could mean less home care in the long run.

If push came to shove I would trust Labour more than the Tories to look after the NHS, but saying that none of them have come out of it over the past few years - well since Thatcher introduced the "internal market" against the BMA's wishes - with shining success.

There was a spokesman from one of the London hospital trusts on the BBC news last week saying that yet again, funding is the issue when it comes to recruiting nurses. There were 20,000 applicants for 2,000 training positions, the number of training positions had been slashed. So yet again, more short term measures of cutting the costs in training nursing staff then having to go overseas to recruit. So, not a case of people not wanting to go into nursing.