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Breaking News - Allegedly 10 people killed at office of satirical magazine in Paris

(923 Posts)
TerriBull Wed 07-Jan-15 11:50:23

Whilst we don't have all the facts, I have read that at least ten people have been killed at the offices of a satirical French magazine in Paris where gunmen have opened fire.

Given the troubled times we are living in should publications try to rein in the content of anything that might be deemed controversial to certain groups because scenarios like this one will make it hardly worth the loss of life/ves, or should free speech prevail at all costs?

thatbags Fri 09-Jan-15 07:18:30

Who said anything about sophisticated? The point is that non-religious people who want to expose what they see as the ridiculousness of religion should have the same right of free speech as religious people do. Lots of things religious people say disgust secularists, agnostics and atheists. Lots of things connected with religion are farcical, unsophisticated, crude.

I do not like the Charlie Hebdo cartoons but I defend the publisher's right to publish them.

Eloethan Fri 09-Jan-15 01:14:30

The definition of satire is: the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues

In case anyone hasn't read the whole thread, I repeat Mishap's description of two supposed satirical cartoons:

In one, Muhammad is bending over naked, a star covering his arsehole; the caption reads "A star is born."
In another, above the caption "The film that will set the Muslim world on fire," Muhammad is shown naked lying on a bed, being filmed from behind, saying "My arse? And you love it, my arse?"

In what way can this be considered to be a sophisticated form of satirical commentary, used to expose the absurdity of a political or religious issue? To me it is just coarse, juvenile humour that serves no useful purpose at all.

I do think it is unnecessarily offensive and I would consider it to be so if Jesus or any other religious or culturally significant figure were depicted instead of Muhammad. As Mishap said, is this what "freedom of speech" is all about? I don't believe such material should be censored or prohibited but I won't rush to praise it.

It should not be necessary for me to say that I am as horrified as everyone else about the pointlessness and savagery of these murders, but I'll do so to avoid the charge that I'm an apologist for terrorism.

absent Fri 09-Jan-15 01:06:07

jingl Different people, even if they are of the same broad faith, have very different ideas about what constitutes "true religion", never mind those who regard all religion as mythology. There is no way any definition of such a vague concept would be acceptable to all and the expression "true religion' is, therefore, meaningless.

Soutra Thu 08-Jan-15 23:17:01

Amongst the earliest vicious cartoons are of course those by James Gillray in the Georgian era, the artist William Hogarth (the Rake's Progress etc) through the famous Punch cartoons of the Victorian era and WW I, to the Evening Standard's David Low during WW II and Gerald Scarfe in the present day. As they say- to name but a few! Gillray is particularly vicious and pulled no punches in his lampooning of the Prince Regent, government ministers of the day and leading statesmen.

petallus Thu 08-Jan-15 23:11:48

I've been reading Private Eye for years. There has never been anything in it remotely like the cartoons which have been described.

Private Eye is funny, enlightening and challenges the status quo. IMO it has integrity.

soontobe Thu 08-Jan-15 22:50:33

I couldnt see anything remotely problematic with Private Eye at all, anywhere.

soontobe Thu 08-Jan-15 22:49:21

I am slightly now pondering about what would come under your heading of vicious?

soontobe Thu 08-Jan-15 22:47:44

I think I would agree with that definition Soutra.
And I personally dont have a problem with that. And I personally dont have a problem with that at any religion either.
I had a brief look at Private Eye. The December edition has mild jokes about christianity on its front cover. No problem at all.

But the 2 french examples that Mishap quoted above in her 18.52pm post go way way beyond that.
I think I am right in saying that there are other examples they have been doing too.

jinglbellsfrocks Thu 08-Jan-15 22:40:41

Terribull, I wasn't making "comparisons" between these terrorists and the IRA. Just mentioning them side by side. And the fact that neither of them individually have anything to do with true religion.

Soutra Thu 08-Jan-15 22:39:40

How would you define "satire" then soontobe?
In my book satire debunks, pokes fun at, lampoons. It can be vicious but it does not incite hatred, rather it punctures inflated egos.

soontobe Thu 08-Jan-15 22:29:58

Satire is not hatred. Satire is not to incite hatred either

I have been pondering this.
Unless we know the people concerned, I am not sure that we can necessarily come to this conclusion?

Ariadne Thu 08-Jan-15 22:20:12

Very emotive language in this article "tormented" etc designed to inflame, I think. Yes, France has its problems from its colonial history and poor treatment of its immigrant population - sound familiar? One could substitute "United Kingdom" for "France" in that sentence.

It doesn't much help rational discussion.

rosesarered Thu 08-Jan-15 22:16:42

I'm not sure that Muslim extremists need much of an excuse to bomb/shoot/otherwise murder, and yes, it did target this satirical magazine staff, but it could just as easily have been any passers-by/people on a train/bus etc.As it has been regularly doing for years now.

soontobe Thu 08-Jan-15 21:53:24

This is an interesting article about the French and muslims. And has interesting comments.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2901283/SIMON-HEFFER-France-land-tormented-history-hostility-natives-increasing-Muslim-population-grows.html

thatbags Thu 08-Jan-15 21:03:43

I don't like the cartoon drawing on the front of the Independent today, but I think they were right to publish it.

thatbags Thu 08-Jan-15 20:58:23

You don't have to like it to accept that it can have and does have a useful place in a free society.

thatbags Thu 08-Jan-15 20:56:58

Satire is not hatred. Satire is not to incite hatred either; it is to encourage thought—deep, questioning thought. That is its purpose. It's an admirable purpose even when the thoughts it provokes are uncomfortable.

annodomini Thu 08-Jan-15 20:29:34

The police would charge you with displaying 'indecent images of children', soontobe. It would also probably be conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace.

Mishap Thu 08-Jan-15 20:03:30

Indeed Iam64 - I agree with all you say.

petallus Thu 08-Jan-15 19:47:10

whitewave do you really think we can say what we like?

soontobe Thu 08-Jan-15 19:45:06

Why isnt it freespeech?

Who says it is illegal?

Riverwalk Thu 08-Jan-15 19:36:18

That wouldn't be free speech soontobe it would be illegal.

And a rather stupid post IMO.

Iam64 Thu 08-Jan-15 19:30:38

Reasonable points Mishap, bus as you've already said, nothing justifies the murder of 12 people in Paris.

I don't like many of the current comedians, especially the men who make jokes about domestic violence or rape. If free speech means I have them in the background of my life, I can live with that. I certainly wouldn't want any of them to be shot because they say stuff I find abhorrent.

soontobe Thu 08-Jan-15 19:27:38

whitewave.
If I were to make you presumably appalled by standing outside your road with a picture of your unclothed granddaughter on a placard, and do it daily, that is ok beacuse of freedom of speech?

Mass murder is indefensible - that is a given
I am going to keep repeating that.

whitewave Thu 08-Jan-15 19:25:31

it does so because it is free!!