Breaking News - Allegedly 10 people killed at office of satirical magazine in Paris

God decides what is wrong.
I am not going to drag up another thread. So I will temporarily stop posting.

Why cant both be wrong?

Riverwalk I couldn't agree more.

It's around six hours since this all happened and we've had time to watch the footage and mull things over.

I have to say that it's absolutely fucking outrageous that 12 people have been murdered for printing cartoons.

No matter how juvenile, goading, provocative they may have been .... I can't believe that so many have lost their lives.

There's another thread on GN wherein religious people are upset about a TV presenter who said 'Jesus wept'.

Why, oh why?

crun - I agree, I can happily argue with my original statement "should publications try to rein in anything that might be controversial" I just think what has happened in Paris today is a hell of a price to pay for being provocative............. on the other hand capitulating to terrorists is the thin end of the wedge, take that to it's logical conclusion you are in danger of living in a society that bans everything, music, art, women's faces, kites.

I guess free speech comes at a price and I think it should be exercised with caution, but as you say if you put limits on anything some would go around being violent against anything they feel offended by.

But isn't the problem that it isn't just about allowing free speech but listening to each other too? The great thing about Speakers' Corner is that anyone can speak and we can ^choose to listen or walk away. These terrorists don't seem to accept the right of others to choose to believe, or not. If you don't believe you are an infidel and dispensable. Look at what's happening in Syria, Iraq etc.

One of the great changes that has happened in the last 20 years has been the acquisition of 'rights' by everyone without responsibilities (someone else will take care of it for them) and the ability, because of the Internet and social media, for 'everyone' to say their piece!

Oh, dear, Crun, a sad story indeed. Of course we must uphold our right to free speech or otherwise where will it all end? Free speech in this country is something to be proud of. Does anyone remember listening to people ranting on at Speakers' Corner in London? I assume it still happens. The speakers were free to say exactly what they wanted but the British sense of humour often overtook what they were saying and they were laughed off their soapboxes. That is a very healthy thing for democracy, I would say.

crun interesting what you say. We had a local stores up the road run by a very nice woman who happened to be Muslim, never bothered me in any way. Then as time went on and she got to know people, she would chat to customers and soon began to say alarming things, for example, all young white girls were slappers and 'asking for it' because they wore short skirts and went out at night and drank alcohol'. The last time I went in her shop I found myself party to a discussion about sharia law. She was defending the chopping off of thieves' arms because 'stops 'em doing it again, dun it'. She was not joking. Glad to say the shop closed, she probably scared all the customers away!

As others have said, I'd be happier if more moderate Muslims would condemn these attacks. And you can be sure it'll happen in London or another city in the UK before too long.

"If you dont put limits on critisism, then that must mean that you and others can go about being uncontrolably rude to anyone you want to."

And if you don't put limits on what people can be offended by, people will feel that they can go around being violent about anything they like. When it comes to being offended, the absolute minimum requirement is that people should be able to defend their beliefs with evidence and a rational argument, otherwise anyone can shut anyone up simply by being 'offended'. Holding beliefs "because I just do" doesn't cut the mustard, so the issue is not whether people are entitled not to be offended, it's whether the issue in hand is a defensible reason to feel hurt in the first place.

What if I had murdered my father for telling me that Santa Claus is just a fairy tale, should I be able to justify that by arguing that I was offended?

"I feel intense frustration with the moderate and decent muslim communities who make insufficient noise"

I used to work with a Muslim. He was a nice bloke, mild mannered, affable, inoffensive. Then one day somebody in the lab mentioned Salman Rushdie, and he said that he thought it was perfectly reasonable to kill him.

And Mishap.

I so agree with Anya there.

I think people need to show a bit more common sense when publishing this stuff. What is the point in deliberately stirring things up? It's not funny, and it certainly isn't clever.

Pogs was good to hear of the anti-demonstrators demonstrations in Germany, including the lights going out on key buildings.

I think that is what happened to me terribull as I was commenting on the same story. I am not anti any religious belief, I am against crimes and atrocities being committed in the name of those religions. I no more blame all Muslims for what has happened than I blame my parish priest for the IRA bombings, but until the rest of the Islamic faith stands up to these people and says 'not in my name' then I despair. This atrocity is more serious than people realise, not just because of the victims, but because of the serious consequences for freedom of expression and democracy.

Heartbreaking and frightening news. The responsibility for the attack lies with the perpetrators and only the perpetrators. The journalists and the policemen were innocent victims of cowardly terrorists.

DH and I were just discussing this and he just said 'where is it all going to end'. No one seems to have an answer.

GillT57 - I sympathise. On the subject of a report by a German journalist writing about an ISIS held town, and being very shocked by reading how women and children were taken as slaves and bartered, I posted "what a ghastly religion" I should have added in the context of what I was reading I deemed it ghastly, just as I would label persecution and wrong doings in the Catholic church as ghastly. One person responded to that post with the short sharp riposte "Islam is not a ghastly religion".

Sometimes it is, because religion like politics often has an agenda.

Agreed mishap and anya we need more people from the majority Islamic religion to stand up and say this is unacceptable. This is truly appalling and following on from the suicide bombing in Istanbul yesterday is a terrifying advancement of these terrible people and their vile murderous ways. For the first time in my life, I can honestly say that I am frightened by what is ahead of us for I can see nothing that will stop them. Terribull when I expressed the same opinion as you in a previous thread ( and I agree with you) I was reported for my sentiments and told that I did not understand Middle East politics.....no I dont understand the ins and out of Middle East politics but I do understand that these people are evil and wicked and if they have a god, he should be ashamed of them.

I have an issue with those that say this is nothing to do with Islam. Clearly it's nothing to do with the peaceful section of the Muslim community, who make up the vast majority. Jidhad, holy war is a belief that is part of that religion, as is the evangelical ideal held by some that their faith alone should prevail and we should live under a caliphate.

We went through all this with Christianity five hundred or so years ago, and incidentally I have never seen it written by anyone on GN that the persecutions inflicted under the Spanish Inquisition, or recent abuses by the clergy were nothing to do with the Catholic church, clearly they were as indeed the numerous atrocities that are happening in Middle East are something to do with Islam.

Religions evolve because they are predominantly man made and those men want to drive it along for their own ends, usually to control other sections of society, infidels and of course WOMEN, sometimes religion morph into something dark and very evil.

If they shout too loudly they'll probably meet the same fate as the French journalists.

Recently the young boxer Amir Khan visited the scene of the school where cowardly jihadists slaughtered 130+ children and teachers. He was loud in his condemnation. I'd like to see more moderate Muslims, especially those with a high profile, step up and add their voices to the protest.

I feel intense frustration with the moderate and decent muslim communities who make insufficient noise about this. They issue bland condemnatory statements when these things happen - but they need to be visibly and audibly condemning this stuff all the time. There need to to be organisations that make a point of getting out and about into the communities and telling us all, and their own adherents, that this is wrong, wrong, wrong.

They may be doing some of this - but we need to hear them loud and clear all the time: rallies, page adverts in newspapers, active charitable activities in all communities - they need to be shouting their message from the rooftops - or we will be tempted to think there is a tacit condoning of what is happening.

I am sure that if I googled this I could find some references to moderates making their point, but I should not have to search for it - it should be in my face.

I understand about arguing with yourself Terri as I'm all for responsible journalism and have no particular liking of the French and Danish magazines that have attracted extremists.

But no matter how offended someone might be, murdering journalists is hardly an appropriate response. Extremists, from whatever cause, are dictators who want to impose their will, and if they can't get that by threats they then resort to murder.

I'm reminded of those who picket and threaten abortion clinics in the US - when that didn't work, staff at one clinic were murdered.

Is it possible to argue with yourself? On the subject of blasphemy I do. On the one hand I absolutely agree with the sentiments of feetlebaum and others here who say that free speech must prevail because, if it doesn't we change the nature of our free society.

However I think we must accept that we live in the times we do, this publication has from what I have read, printed some pretty contentious material, and it's not the first time they have been targeted. Given today's awful massacre part of me can't help thinking is it worth provoking a very reactionary section of society if this is going to be the likely scenario. Having said that, following on from another thread many Christians feel that their beliefs are pilloried at times and and the expectation on them is frankly just to suck it up, so the premise of make exceptions is again one that I don't like.

There are 10 murdered from the magazine Charlie Hebdo and 2 police officers. Also critically injured and other wounded. It must be so worrying that the gunmen are on the run, thus far.

I heard the French journalist Agnes Poirier, who is often on our t.v screens ,speaking from Paris to Andrew Neil during Daily Politics. She said that Charlie Hebdo does not single out Muslims/Islam it has a go at most establishments or religions. It is a satirical magazine after all.

I not only worry about the fact those who follow extreme beliefs in the Muslim faith are a danger to our total way of life but there is going to be an even bigger backlash against Muslims if the Muslim communities do not come out and show some backbone and condemn the likes of IS.

Sweden is seeing a big problem with anti Muslim sentiment and 3 mosques I believe have been fire bombed very recently. Germany had rallies against the 'Islamisation of the West' , in the last 2 days. There have been a few demonstrations in other countries but you don't get to hear of them because our media and news stations don't report world news very well.

If you don't believe in freedom of speech what do you want?. We either carry on with our Democratic way of life and abide by the law of our countries or we abide the Islamic/Muslim way of life according to the Muslim extremists, because we have given in to fear and accept their repressive/barbaric values. .

Well I for one do not want to touch/embrace any of the values of the barbaric/radical /extremist Muslim and the decent Muslim community must despair.

What I find probably worse than anything is the fact that barbaric murderer's kill 12 people and the conversation by the media is whether or not the magazine should have run cartoons. For heavens sake when will people just call these events what they are vile, barbaric, murderous attacks on western values by extremists who hold no value of humanity.

These people are no more religious than those who have perverted real religions for the own purposes in the past Riverwalk but I know what you mean and agree.

Some of our free speech will be immediately limited by the fear this engenders so we should be loud in our praise of those who are prepared to stand up to these thugs. These offices had been fire bombed in the past so the journalists knew they were taking risks. People have taken risks for our freedom in the past and this is no different. Once you agree to limit freedom of speech you limit freedom. These were brave people.