Breaking News - Allegedly 10 people killed at office of satirical magazine in Paris

I've been away and have wandered back into this thread. Firstly, thanks to Eloethan for her contributions, so thoughtful, balanced and well informed.

A poster earlier criticised Howard Jacobson for mentioning the fact he's Jewish, the poster hadn't previously heard of him. He was born in 1942 and grew up in Prestwich, then and now, known as a Jewish area. He is a writer and I've heard him speak a number of times. For me, he's one of the good guys. He is Jewish, I don't understand why he should avoid mentioning that.

I'm just back in the north west, the assistant at the place we hired a van from was of Pakistani Muslim heritage. His work colleague also from the same heritage. I don't want to sentimentalise or not to acknowledge the fears expressed by some posters about the Muslim faith. I share concerns about radicalisation, especially on towns like the one I live in. But, these young men were typical of other men and women who live and work locally. They were like other local residents, of whatever ethnic/racial heritage, friendly, helpful and in no way 'different' than others in our town.

Another bloody good article for those few who want to read it about how Hindus and Muslims in India blaspheme all the time and always have, how people draw, not cartoons with pen and ink, but word pictures that depict their ever changing relationship with their saints and gods and goddesses. And more. Good writing. Good read.

Anya

Said the spider to the fly!

PS Where is soontobe?
There were some points she said she was going to come back to us on....

Oops I see it was on the other thread! Never mind, not entirely irrelevant.

I added a comment here which seems to have disappeared! I think I said that I agree absolutely absent and with including Netanyahu in that list!

Penstemmon Not to mention those who harass mourners, wave placards and shout hate-filled slogans at the funerals of people who have died from AIDS.

While I agree that Muslim fundamentalists are making the headlines at the moment, does anybody else remember Christian fundamentalist pro- life campaigners attacking abortion clinics and their staff in the US? Creationist fundamentalist Christians may not have set out to kill anybody, but have attacked schools for teaching the theory of evolution too.
It is a huge topic and I like the thought of a thread on "fundamentalism" but would hope it would not deteriorate into "personal" unfounded theological assertions.

Adolf Hitler: Acting According to God's Will

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

and so many more...

Or Hitler- he is an 'excellent' case of someone who did the most abominable things in the name of God.

Would you include 'racial purists' in the fundamentalist list? e.g KKK etc

I agree that fundamentalism is probably a term that is now used for mainly aggressive and violent movements with a 'political' agenda i.e they want their views to be the views that impact on all.

There are 'fundamentalists' that do not actively try to impact on others. I am thinking of groups like the Amish community, some Orthodox Jews, 'closed communities' etc. They just want to believe what they believe and not engage with those who do not. Do you think they are /should be included in the term fundamentalist?

Good point, petallus. No, I don't think one has to threaten murder to be a fundamentalist, but I think one has to adhere to a certain inflexibility even in the face of reasonable argument or criticism and, perhaps, to regard criticism, even sound justifiable criticsm, as some kind of threat against which you are justified in taking (possibly violent) physical action rather than verbal action.

That's just off the top of my head before I go out so I don't expect it is adequate. The definition of fundamentalism could be a huge topic in itself.

I too would be very shocked if any of my friends took those extremist views. Makes you shudder.

Excellent article Thatbags-

as you know, I now live on the Swiss-French border, and many of my old school friends from the past are split between the ardent fundamentalist Charlie freedom of speech 'nuts' and the ardent fundamentalist nationalist Christians of one or other denomination who would quite happily 'shoot' all the Muslims today. I look aghast at both sides- and feel lost and bewildered at both reactions.

Been quite a shock for me- and I feel so British on the whole thing, and so like Cohen and Self.

I just read the article reproduced in The Observer today and I agree it was one of his best. A well reasoned argument and he managed to quote people who have opposing views to his without insulting them.

However Bags do you think for people to be described as fundamentalist they have to threaten murder? I don't.

His main point is that proponents of free speech a) do not think free speech is an absolute right, and b) there is no such thing as free speech fundamentalism because however loudly and vigorously people argue in its favour, no-one has to fear being killed by a proponent of it.

Another goody from Nick Cohen in the Guardian.

This is good, clear, incisive writing whether one agrees with him or not. I do agree with him on this.

I agree jingl.

I was taught that good writing should be clear, elegant, easily understood.

Some writers go in for tortuously long sentences and big words where they are not necessary so that reading them is a bit like wrestling with an octopus.

i have recently started reading Haruki Murakami who manages to convey atmosphere and depth but in a simple manner.

Girls, girls play nice!

Of course jingl. -big words, subordinate clauses and joined up writing- what more could you possibly want?

You really think this bunch of journos are "brilliant writers" Bags?