--crap-- keepsakes on graves

There was a tradition in Olde England of families visiting and dressing graves sometimes quite garishly.
Kilvert mentions it in his Diary.
Gypsy families still do that but it seems to have died out otherwise.
I can't see any problem in any trinkets , teddies or whatever on a grave as long as the grave is kept tidy.
As for those petrol station bouquets taped to lampposts and other such tokens at fatal accident spots if it helps people grieve then why not?

As I said, perhaps a quiet tactful word with grieving parents after the months it would take for a grave to become as you describe vampire, would be the answer, if nothing else it MIGHT prevent bad feeling! I agree that it might be better to take the cellophane off bunches of flowers, but I think most people do clear flowers away after a certain time, and again it's not beyond possibility that a gentle chat on that subject if necessary cannot be had by a caring Vicar to the family concerned! I can't think that many people would be offended by that, provided they are not talked down to or patronized.

And have those buried in a grave next to a grave with rotting teddies on complained ? I find your comments to be without any compassion or understanding , you are more concerned with what pleases your eye that what helps a person find some consolation in their pain

It seems some people find solace in turning their child's grave into a compost heap and rubbish tip and the rest of us have to accept it. Would my neighbours have to accept it if I choose to create a compost heap and rubbish tip in front of my house, provided it doesn't cause an obstruction of course? If not, why not?

Vampire Queen, you know what your grief is like, you do not know what the grief of another's is like, I have suffered the loss of two babies , I would not place teddies etc but no way do I claim to know of the grief of those who do leave teddies etc. As for crap , could you not have said rotting teddies ? They are rotting teddies but they are not crap, they are an outward glimps of a others grief and how they choose to cope with it . I found your comments harsh, cold and judgemental

I dislike toys, plastic etc on graves , I dislike flowers left on roadsides , I dislike yellow ribbons tied to trees but I respect the fact they are helping people who are enduring grief, anguish and dispair so if it gets them through this is all that concerns me

This is so hard- as we all grieve in different ways- and should respect each other's wishes. But at times it is hard- because if a parent who has lost a child, as vampirequeen sadly has- it upset by the rotting teddies and plastic stuff, etc, when she wants to visit her son's grave- than her feelings are just as valid, no?

I am with you totally vampirequeen- it upsets me too. Graveyards here have clear rules about maintenance. If toys or floral tributes, etc, etc, begin to rot and are left- they will be removed by council staff. People know this and accept this- if council staff have to do this often, the family may be charged a fee.

I recently visited a Natural Burial ground near where we lived in the UK- and the rules there are very strict- native natural flowers only, no reefs or tributes pinned to plastic frames, only wood/cardboard, and native trees. That would be my choice. Each to their own, as long as it does not have a negative effect on others.

All I know is that both my parents are buried in the same grave in their village graveyard, and I know without doubt that neither one of them would evenly remotely object to a child's grave being decorated with toys or anything that would bring grieving parents some comfort, as indeed neither would I when my time comes to join them. As for a party! I expect they'd join in!!
As for decoration that is fading, surely, some considerable time in the future, (if it's that important) there could be a visit to the family from their Vicar or another appropriate person, when perhaps a replacement for the toys or another arrangement could be suggested. I know this is possible from personal experience. Surely this is much better than clacking tongues and disapproving attitudes.

My father once said that it's a pretty poor do if a gravestone is the best thing you can find to remember somebody by, so I had him cremated. His ashes are scattered on the summit of Haystacks in the Lakes.

When I was in Corfu it was quite touching to see all the roadside shrines, but whilst it's interesting to see another culture when you're on holiday, I think it would soon get a bit much if they were to start springing up over here.

No one can justify rotting plastic but who says that such actions have to be justified?

I'm a non-believer so people can leave whatever 'crap' they like but as far as I'm personally concerned it makes not a bit of difference to the dead child.

However, I know that we're not all the same and some bereaved parents might find solace in leaving teddies and windmills.

There are worse things than untidy graveyards.

VQ

I think it is a custom for Romany/gypsy/travellers/tinkers call them what you are comfortable with, to 'celebrate' the life of their loved ones and basically make a pilgrimage to their grave and yes they do party.

To some that is disrespectful, to some it makes sense, to some they just view as it is.

I'm not worried about what people think about my attitude. At least I justify my views. No one has justified the acceptability of rotting soft toys and broken plastic.

If I am honest I don't like to see decaying flowers or 'trinkets' , if that is an acceptable word to use.

I do however believe that what I think is neither here nor there as the grief of those who have lost their loved ones certainly trumps what ever views I have on the matter.

The problem is flowers, plastic and material decays. People may or may not be able to visit regularly. People may live milesmiles away from the grave site.

Who am I to tell another family how they should 'appropriately' grieve or show their love for their loved one.

Rather unkind remark there Anya especially as I was trying to defuse the situation by showing both sides of the argument. I didnt mean 'tasteful' to be used as a derogatory term. I am off this thread, too nasty for me.

And whilst I'm on the subject of graveyards, why do some people insist on having birthday parties for the dead child around the grave? I find this most bizarre. I can understand a visit. Maybe even removing rotting tokens and replacing them with new things but a party????

For those who may not have noticed I did say in my OP that I had lost a child and knew what a mother's grief feels like. Would I want to remember my son with a pile of rotting soft toys and broken plastic? Well I wouldn't have given him them when he was alive so why would I want them now he's not.

OK you don't like the word crap. What word would you use to describe rotting soft toys and broken bits of plastic? Would you prefer rubbish, debris, litter, waste, garbage, trash, junk, detritus, refuse? By all means make the grave look pretty if that helps your grieving process but how does crap, rubbish, debris, litter, waste, garbage, trash, junk, detritus, refuse help anyone? And how does it honour the dead?

Oh dear! I really do think that the word crap is totally inappropriate when discussing what is or is not appropriate to leave on a child's grave, or any grave come to that. I think everyone grieves in their own way, and if the inclusion of a favourite teddy or a special toy on a child's grave brings some comfort to bereaved parents/relations, then where on earth is the harm in that? To try and dictate to a sorrowing family what they can or cannot do is in my mind both snobbish and unkind. To imply that what they wish does not come up to perceived standards or goes against perceptions of decency is outrageous. Whose standards? and why are toys and Teddies offensive? Are they offensive to God? or just the good people of the Cof E our moral guardians who of course, always know best!!

I'm going to take Ann's advice and leave this thread - there are people who clearly like to think they 'understand' .....

infringe on another person's right to visit a peaceful and tasteful and tidy graveyard

I visit a graveyard quite often. Our grave is actually quite 'tasteful' (IMO and probably even on yours Gill) but I don't consider I have a right to judge other graves, in fact I barely notice them.

Agreed Terribull all the money wasted on flowers and teddies would have been better spent on trying to prevent another tragedy by donating to the NSPCC instead. Although VQ used rather emotive language, I do see what point she is making, and although I understand that people mourn in different ways and feel that they wish to line up toys, teddies, wind chimes etc. on the grave, we must also remember the right of the families who have family buried nearby, maybe they don't want a lot of faded plastic, litter ( from polythene flower wrappings) and intrusive wind chimes when they go to visit their family grave. It is the old problem of one person's rights to decorate a grave as they wish infringing on another person's rights to visit a peaceful and tasteful and tidy graveyard. There has been some controversy here about wind chimes; complaints that they are intrusive and disturb those who would rather contemplate peacefully, especially at the time of internment.

I wouldn't judge anyone for what they leave on graves, I can only imagine the pain of losing a child and I perceive that graves covered in a lot of items are for a lost child who died in infancy or as a young person and if it brings the relatives comfort why deny them that.

I always leave flowers on my parents and brother's graves on anniversaries and my husband similarly on his son's who died 10 years ago although visiting the grave results in a week of intense sadness. He is an advocate of cremation but the choice for burial lay with his daughter in law.

Although some people go over the top we all deal with things differently a little compassion wouldn't go amiss. I don't really like the roadside memorials or communal sob fests from the general public that seemed to gather momentum after Diana's death. I remember the huge array of teddy bears and such like that were laid out for Baby P, a wasted effort really undoubtedly a truly heartbreaking case of a baby who died in pain hungry, dirty and alone and no amount of soft toys in the aftermath would change that, better to make a donation to the NSPCC.

However there's nothing new about burying people with material items the pharaohs did it as did other ancient people because they believed they would need those things in the next life. I believe Russian Mafia have even placed expensive cars as mementos on dead gangster's graves.

We must all now agree to disagree.

Each to their own, I don't like things other than flowers on graves but I have relatives who do , they adorn their Dads grave with Christmas ornaments and his favourite football teams colours it brings them comfort that they go and update their dad with whats going on with his 'team' . It doesn't makde sense to me but who am I to disapprove its their way to grieve, everyone is different.

QED Ann

When Anya asks what is it to do with the council? Quite a lot I think when news papers carry stories of councils insisting on headstones with what they consider inappropriate wording such as "nanna" and "poppa"being removed or altered.I can't give examples but I have certainly seen this.

Well put biker - I'm too upset by this to put more reasoned argument but you have said it for me x