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Hunting

(145 Posts)
mrsmopp Wed 18-Feb-15 20:11:25

Hunting was banned ten years ago today. Was it a good thing to ban hunting? We now have foxes in our towns which didnt happen before. Or did it?

granjura Mon 15-Jun-15 21:35:49

And foxes still get killed all the time...

The law allows for an 'exception' - for the dogs to flush the fox to a bird of prey?!?!? so the Hunts just take a bird of prey with a handler- and if the police arrives, or saboteurs with camera- the Hunt just says it was an accident- Simple. Very little has changed in reality on the ground.

merlotgran Mon 15-Jun-15 21:28:30

Of course they have dogs. It's drag hunting now.

whitewave Mon 15-Jun-15 21:02:49

rose have you seen a hunt recently?

TriciaF Mon 15-Jun-15 21:02:04

ok I thought hoi poloi meant "posh" people, or those who aspire to be posh.
My cousin isn't a landowner, he's a tenant farmer for the Duke of Northumberland.

Ana Mon 15-Jun-15 21:00:53

confused

granjura Mon 15-Jun-15 20:52:00

You are jesting, aren't you?!?

rosesarered Mon 15-Jun-15 20:33:13

Yes, the hot polloi, common people!
Although hunting on horseback with dogs is banned, hunting is still popular in the countryside.Just no dogs.Which is fine, the hunters can enjoy a good old chase and jumping over hedges etc and foxes don't get killed.Most hunts have a mixture of people/classes in them.

Ana Mon 15-Jun-15 18:30:49

I thought hoi polloi were the masses. So farmers, shepherds and ordinary folk would be hoi polloi.

Iam64 Mon 15-Jun-15 18:20:43

I agree Tricia, my experience is that most hunt members are not hoi poloi (what an expression) but are farmers, farmers daughter's, ordinary folk who love their horse/pony and enjoy a challenging ride.
My husband is absolutely anti hunting, sees it as some kind of class war but then, he grew up in London rather than the countryside.

TriciaF Mon 15-Jun-15 17:25:17

ps Most of the hunt members are shepherds, not hoi poloi.

TriciaF Mon 15-Jun-15 17:23:40

I'm not sure about the hunting ban, as this thread has shown there are so many sides to the fox problem. (Not to mention the deer and sanglier that are hunted in France, but won't go into that.)
One of my uncles, and then his son, my cousin, were MOFs in the Borders. I don't know how they cope now, but I do know my cousin still goes out regularly and enjoys the ride over the moors etc. My uncle died 2 years ago aged 99! Sometimes they come back with a fox and sometimes not.
They're sheep farmers, and the fox is an enemy at all times especially at lambing times. It's a hard life, though easier now with the 4 by 4s.
When I was a teenager we used to stay on the farm with them often and I admired their way of life.

So I tend to be defensive of the hunt, but not killing for pleasure.

nigglynellie Mon 15-Jun-15 17:20:34

It has already been mentioned on his thread, badger culling successfully aborted in Wales I believe, so I was under the impression that this subject was also up for discussion along with fishing and shooting, also mentioned.

granjura Mon 15-Jun-15 16:35:19

nigglynellie- really not a good idea to mix the two here. Badger culling has nothing to do with hunting per se- so perhaps best to start another thread on this one.

The issue of TB, wild animals and cattle is a hugely complex one, with so many different aspects (deer and other animals carry tb btw, not just badgers).

whitewave Mon 15-Jun-15 16:02:28

bTB is a devastating disease for all concerned but badger culling will not give the farmers what they want i.e. disease free cattle. Only the development of a vaccine will do that.

nigglynellie Mon 15-Jun-15 15:37:59

I was just wondering if anyone on here has given any thought to the devastation caused to farmers by bovine TB? I have seen Farmers reduced to tears at the sight of cattle, some only a few weeks old or younger, pregnant cows, 'good old girls' who have given so much during their lives, rare breeds, Maiden girls, and a host more. It is horrible, and for me, is the other side of the culling coin. I don't know what the answer is, short of factory farming cattle!! But I think these creatures are deserving of our pity too!

loopylou Sat 13-Jun-15 19:12:50

I'm the same re: any hunting too hmm
Breeding pheasants so that they're used to humans and then shooting them? Deer I can accept if it's to control numbers or I'll ones (which I believe it generally is)

Iam64 Sat 13-Jun-15 18:54:15

loopylou - I share your ambivalence. I'm not pro hunting (on horses with dogs, that is) but I'm not sure it's the work of the devil either. As you say, there is no guarantee the hunt will find a fox. I've watched on more than one occasion as the cunning fox slinks off in one direction, whilst the not very bright pack of dogs races off in another. I don't like animals to suffer and i'm sure foxes suffer great fear when being pursued but death is inevitable, unlike with shooting. I too see both sides of the debate - but I don't like the idea of shooting deer/pheasants for fun so I'm a bit rocky on this one smile

loopylou Sat 13-Jun-15 11:06:48

By the way mrsmopp we've always had urban foxes. 40+ years ago as a student nurse in Tooting there were umpteen foxes living under the wards (as an old fever hospital many of the wards at St.George's were raised up on pillars)

loopylou Sat 13-Jun-15 11:04:17

The trouble with shooting is it has to be a clean shot. On three occasions we found horribly distressed foxes that had been shot but not killed, and my soft-hearted DH had to shoot them, very upsetting.

I'm not sure that that's a better fate than hunting when at least the fox (if they find one, it isn't guaranteed) is killed pretty quickly.

I'm not a hunt supporter but I can see both sides of the debate.
As I said, I am ambivalent.

granjura Sat 13-Jun-15 10:52:08

An interesting article from the Irish Times, 13th Feb 1999- part of which is reproduced below. Research has shown that the % loss of lambs on Scottish Islands without any foxes remains the same as on those islands where foxes are present. It is true that foxes will take dead, dying or weak lambs- but much more rarely healthy ones. Poor husbandry, isolated locations with bad weather, snow, cold too much rain and no protection or extra feed, is the mainb culprit. And modern artificial insemination also means that there are more and more multiple births- with the second or thrid lamb being weaker, and the mother unable to protect it/them if singled out by a fox (like all wild animals, they will observe and look for the weakest). Which does not mean that there are NO instances of a fox taking a live healthy lamb- but these are overall rare indeed.

Foxy Study

Michael Viney

Topics:
News

Sat, Feb 13, 1999, 00:00

First published:
Sat, Feb 13, 1999, 00:00

A favourite sound-effect for makers of television thrillers these days is the weird night-wail of a vixen calling up a mate: nothing like it for setting the mood as the killer edges through the laurels.

There have been a lot of phoney wails in the night in the west these past few weeks, and a lot of flickering will-o-the-wisps around the borders of the spruce forests. The vixen-cries come from fox-calls of the sort bought in gunshops, or the squeal of polystyrene rubbed across a windscreen, and the willo-the-wisps are the beams of lampers' spotlights, aimed to light an opal glow in the eyes of a questing dog-fox. Sometimes, one will walk to within a dozen metres, but 50 metres will do, even with a shotgun.

From now until April, when the western lambing begins, a midnight patrol to shoot foxes will be routine for many big sheep-farmers. "My ewes are too scared to lie down for long," says a friend in Co Sligo. "If they die after dark, there'll be only skin and bone left by morning." Last year he shot 54 foxes coming up to lambing. Out after woodcock the other Sunday, he saw another seven.

He's a shooter, but one who loves wildlife. He takes visitors to see badgers digging up his fields at night, and his wife puts out food for a pine marten. There's a family of foxes he doesn't shoot because he's never found lamb bones at their den (and, luckily for them, he thinks he knows their faces).

But, in 1997, he lost more than 100 lambs from twins, some of them a week old, and last spring another 34. He has a vixen's footprint in cement from the time she sneaked into a new shed and stole a triplet, three days old.

Some ewes, especially first-time mothers, are apt to run off with one lamb when danger threatens, leaving the other to its fate. Perhaps this is a price to be paid for giving ewes twins and triplets - but this is not, perhaps, a good time for putting arguments of this sort to a farmer. Certainly, my friend's experience has to be set against the sometimes glib, green view of foxes as natural cullers of a "doomed surplus" of weak and sickly lambs, or as mere scavengers of afterbirth.

What it does suggest, however - and this is scarcely news to ecologists - is that shooting adult foxes indiscriminately in the winter has very little to do with "control". An expert study in the western Highlands of Scotland in the late 1980s monitored what happened on the 70 sq km Loch Eriboll estate when the foxes were left alone for three years, and compared it with another big estate where shooting went on as normal.

The result was no obvious difference in lamb losses (0.6-1.8 per cent) and no increase in the number of foxes. This has been the only systematic European study of its kind, carried out in a region with a deep-seated hatred of foxes, rather like Connacht. But Scottish islands with no foxes lose just as many lambs as mainland areas with fiercely active gun clubs.

Available food - mainly rabbits, voles and sheep and deer carrion - was the key to fox population in Scotland. In Ireland, a decade of carrion littered across the hills from a gross overstocking of sheep must have had its impact on fox numbers. My Sligo friend reckons average litters of two to four cubs have now risen commonly to five to seven.

granjura Sat 13-Jun-15 09:30:15

Agreed- a rogue fox can be quickly and cleanly shot. Some farmers however shoot any fox that they see, be it a problem or not.

We lost all our pet chickens to a vixen- but it was entirely our fault. We forgot to close the hen coop door one night. Poor husbandry is very often the problem. Loopylou. losing all your bantams must have been awful- I am sorry.

When we lost our 6 and as said, they were pets. We felt so bad we were responsible for poor husbandry and care- but never turned our anger at the vixen. She took one and dutifully buried the others under the hedge, with feet just stiking up. We made the decision to leave them- and let nature take its course. I would just love to have chickens here, but with beech and pine marten, foxes and badgers all around- it would be a constant battle.

As said before, foxes do an excellent job or ridding the countryside and also our towns of rubbish and vermin, rats, etc. They are the only effective predator we have in the UK. No foxes = more vermin, rabbit damage, etc.

But in towns foxes are so numerous because of OUR ACTIONS - stop leaving rubbish all over the place (take-aways, McDonalds, etc, and more) and STOP FEEDING THEM. Those who artificially feed foxes cause foxes to breed more and more. Bristol UNI has shown clearly that the number of cubs produced each year is a direct result of the food available.

Atqui Fri 12-Jun-15 21:36:39

Perhaps it was disturbed.? I don't object to foxes being culled if necessary, but as many people have already said , its considering it to be a sport that really gets me.If they want to have a good gallop across the countryside fair enough, but it has little to do with controlling the fox population IMO.

loopylou Fri 12-Jun-15 21:24:49

I'm ambivalent about hunting, I had 65 bantams massacred by a fox in one night. It dug through a 3' drystone barn wall which also had an electric fence around the outside.
It didn't take a single bird.

Atqui Fri 12-Jun-15 21:21:54

...and granjura . I'm sure foxes are opportunists and would come back for their kill had it not been cleared away by the hen owners. How do people expect a single fox to carry away all their prey in one go?

Atqui Fri 12-Jun-15 21:11:10

Thanks Bagsfor your input .