"A tragic death due to over demand and under capacity"

The schools my kids went to wanted kids to fulfill their potential. Most schools do, even ones in "working class" areas. I think it is snobbish to want to separate one's kids from less fortunate ones, though it's also understandable on some level. I just didn't and don't feel the need to do it, neither did my parents, neither did my very working class grandparents who didn't get the chance to stay at school as long as they would have liked.

bags I don't think it's snobbish to want your children to go to a school which has a reputation for encouraging the children to fulfill their potential.
It's simply being a normal parent.

those of you are the ones who are the snobs are the ones who say they want their kids to mix with all classes. You have never had to delouse your kids, have to explain why a boy aged 3 sexually assaulted your child (as I did) because his mum was a prostitute and allowed him to watch and he copied what he had seen by trying out stuff that too horrific to describe. The list goes on, another girl used to make dog poo sandwiches to feed her friends etc. Try living on a sink estate.

As regards 'good schools' and bad ones, my DD has studied the Ofsted reports and picked a first school with a private nursery for DGD. You might all think she is a snob as she has not chosen the local school for the reason of the Ofsted report and also the bad reputation of the families that use the school.
We all want our kids to have good education so can anyone tell me how do you cope with your kids being mixed in with families that are gypsies, thugs, unemployed (long term), the kids who scream and shout and swear, fight and run wild unsupervised in the street.
The kids DGD will be mixing with are from families who supervise their kids, take them out on proper outings, read with them and generally are well behaved. How do you tell a toddler not to copy a nose picking swearing brat. I defy anyone not to stop their kids or grandkids from mixing with these horrible kids, not the kids fault but I certainly don't want her mixing with these scum

durhamjen I have never expected the council to replace my kitchen after I had bought the house, I said that it was about 30 years old when I bought the house and I replaced it a few years later when I could afford it. Someone else has said that I fell for Thatchers trick of buying my house. I saw simply a way of investing in property that I could not afford to do on the open market, it was and still is a wonderful way of people to better themselves and get a foot on the property ladder and it is open to anyone who is a tenant. How can that be a trick, if anyone doesn't wan to buy then good luck to them but for me I have the pride of being a home owner and I think that everything is MINE, no man involved, every penny has been earned.

Actually, riverwalk, the primary school DD3 went to is in a relatively deprived area. It served her (and lots of other kids) well. And the one DDs 1 & 2 went to served a good cross section from a small town, including most of the children from the poorest area of said town. In both cases there was/is only one state secondary school. So what I said earlier was completely honest and above board. All I did in both cases when we were moving to a new area (from Scotland to relatively southern England and back to Scotland again) was find the nearest school and ring them before we arrived to give them the children's details and tell them when we'd be starting. No research other than that because, although I may be middle class by education, I'm not a snob and don't want my kids to be. I want them to mix with all 'classes' as I did growing up. I don't make assumptions about other people I don't know either.

I really don't like that expression "sink estate". How awful for people who have to live in one.

Not picking on people who use on here though, just learning and expressing my feelings.

Even the best schools can go downhill. We moved to an area where the school had an excellent reputation under a highly esteemed HT who retired as soon as my DSs arrived - not cause and effect! This school, in a largely professional/managerial catchment area is now suffering from two decades of inadequate management and its OFSTED assessments have been disappointing. Many parents are now sending their offspring to schools in neighbouring areas, or indeed to private schools.

Bags would it be a safe bet to assume that you moved to relatively nice locations?

You might not have been so laid-back about schools if you lived in an under-privileged area or if the nearest school was in the middle of a sink estate.

I suspect that it is even more middle class to assume that if one's own children go to a school that does not feature high on league tables, the school will inevitably benefit from their presence. I didn't go so far as to think that exactly but I never did any school research when our house movings entailed changes of schools; I just sent my kids to the local state school. I believe that if everyone did that there'd be fewer problems because there would be a better social balance.

I read your post Grannyknot and thought the phrase originated earlier than the 90s, so googled and found this:

'The term 'sink estate' is first recorded in an article in 'New Society' magazine in an issue of 1976. There had been earlier references in the British press to 'sink areas' and 'sink schools'. It would seem, therefore, to be a journalistic term rather than a sociologist's one.

'Sink' is not a reference to the kitchen sink but to the much older idea that a 'sink' is a pit dug for waste water/sewage to flow into...a cesspit, in other words. So, 'sink' places represent the lowest of the low.'

Para above copied from this site:

www.intelligentanswers.co.uk/index.php?topic=1073.0

Know OR understand! Kindle in bed = not good!

I didn't know it understand the phrase "sink estate" so I looked it up and found this. Do other's agree with this explanation:

"Sink estates were largely created by the 'right to buy' system popularised by the Conservative party in the 1980s and 1990s.

Council tenants in more popular areas (ie prosperous larger, terraced or semi-detached properties) were far more likely to want to buy their property and also more likely to be able to secure a mortgage from building societies.

This left the less popular areas (usually run-down inner-city areas, no-go areas and those with higher crime rates or far less attractive housing) still under council ownership.

The councils at the time were rate-capped and had limited budgets for improvements or refurbishments.

This in turn exacerbated existing social problems and further alienated or isolated the people left 'abandoned' in those areas from wider society.

The origin, date and definitive meaning of the term 'sink estate' is, however, unknown. Or, at least, I couldn't find it.

The phrase is relatively new and came into usage in the 1990s, and was probably a term coined by journalists."

Well Crun middle class people are supposedly adept at getting the best out of state services, aren't they?
I will hold my hand up and say that because of the state-provided education I was fortunate enough to receive, I am middle-class.
When we moved to the area where we live now, the first piece of research we did was to find out where the good state schools were.
They turned out to be very good, as are the doctors.
But that's what middle class people do, isn't it?
Most people like to live amongst people like themselves.
Trevor Phillips in his recent documentary about race, made the point that in his childhood he could have made a map of north London according to where all the different racial and national groups had chosen to live.

"Good clinicians do not judge their patients; they listen to them, hear what they are saying, treat them and try to understand them as individuals and empathise with them. "

A well spoken middle class woman on the radio was saying that she used to live in a very affluent area of Bristol, but then had to move to a poor/sink estate area. She had phoned in because the difference in the doctors had been a real eye opener. In the posh area the GPs had treated her with respect, involving her in her treatment and decisions, explaining etc. When she got to the poor area she was treated like a sponger and timewaster by patronising doctors who explained nothing, and didn't involve her in her treatment at all.

Ethel why on earth didn't you fix the door handles?

Just got back to this - I didn't think you were djen - I just realised that because I hadn't qualified what I wrote, others may think that I bought a Council house I had previously occupied as a Council tenant.

I agree Nana.
I said much the same on another thread. That there are too many admin. A poster said that they were needed to free up clinical staff.
But it is a matter of numbers. Too many admin and chiefs.

I agree with Rosequartz about GPs from childhood - however, I think that with rationing - especially sweets - people were much healthier then. So many health problems are associated with obesity, smoking and other lifestyle choices.
Several years ago, MIL went into hospital and came out with bedsores. Retired nursing friends of my age+ were horrified that this had happened. So preventable with old fashioned nursing care.
When my mother was in hospital, my sister took in antisptic wipes to ensure everything was clean - and it was necessary too.
On the other hand, when I was in hospital, I couldn't have had better care, same with my husband. However, we were younger then and I think this may have a bearing on the care we received.
I think the modern NHS suffers from too many managers and not enough 'doers'. Bring back the old fashioned Matron.

I lived in council houses for the first twentyfive years of my life. My father used to fix anything that needed fixed, decorate and wallpaper, (except big structural repairs) and no-one threw us out for it, or even noticed as far as I recall. He kept the garden beautiful, too. About half of our neighbours did the same, about a quarter did some things around the house and/or looked after their garden, and about a quarter did nothing anywhere.

It only takes a few people to be prepared to live in squalor without helping themselves for the area to look run-down, which means that fewer and fewer others feel it is worth bothering, and the spiral begins.

If each tenant did what they could there would be less for the council workmen to do, and perhaps they would get more done.

Wasn't talking about you, Grannyknot. My son and his partner bought a very nice ex-council flat in York, with lots of room in it, because they could afford it and they liked it.
I was talking about Ethel, who lived in a council house before she bought it, then saw all her council neighbours getting their kitchens done up.

Just to clarify, we didn't buy our house because of falling for any tricks! (I have no idea what that is all about just a vague notion about the history) - we bought our house from a young NZ couple who had obviously bought it from an owner and so on.

I have said before that we found it most amusing that the estate agent kept on telling us "You do realise it's ex local authority?" which meant nothing to us, really. We just liked the house. Thank God I don't know too much about the so-called class system.

Galen the son of someone I knew was a collector of all sorts of rubbish, piles of newspapers, etc., and car and aeroplanes bits. His kitchen was so full of fridges and freezers there was only just room to get between them and the table.
One day this friend had not seen her son for a few days, so called at his house. He had been cleaning a propeller on the kitchen table and had a heart attack. He had fallen forward onto the propeller and impaled himself and died.

So, ethel, if your husband had fixed door handles, what would the council have done? Thrown you out, or said thank you?
How old was your council house?
You obviously fell for Thatcher's trick by buying your council house. The council shouldn't be expected to replace your kitchen if you have bought the house.

I uderstand what etheltbags1 is saying.
I have not experienced what she is saying, but I know of areas like she is describing.
And to those people there, professionals seem to come from a different world. And in most cases, not absolutely all, they indeed do.
So yes, examples[and there will be many] where a HV or suchlike try to solve or advise on a problem, can be well outside of what they experience themselves, so are inappropriate to their clients.

I think that to some people, it is still very much a you and them situation. And they are scared.
Another for instance. There were many parents at my childrens' school who did not go to parents evenings. Why not? Because they were still scared of teachers, many years after they themselves had left school. So had no wish whatsoever to revisit a school if they did not have to. They had no wish to be told off all over again, even if it was about their child or teenager.
They still find schools uncomfortable places.

So ditto, doctors, and any other profession.
She says it would be great for them to spend some time there. She is right.
Imagine if planners for instance spent time there?

It isnt going to happen for most professions.

But it is no good also saying that so called sink estates shouldnt exist or whatever either. Because that isnt going to happen.

I think GPs are getting younger rosequartz. Much younger.

thatbags - did they live in a squalid area too? A bit different though when they know that they are not staying. But yes, at least they will have experienced damp, noisy neighbours etc.

ja - but it is not just about assumptions. It is about understanding. And asking appropriate questions.
For instance, I read of a doctor and his team who couldnt work out quite what was wrong with a child. Eventually they realised that he was hungry. Day in and day out. It had taken them months to reach that most easy of answers.