Labour Party, Lib Dem Party - where to now.

The unions' political leanings is the issue that Anya is trying to discuss.

Did anyone see that lady from Dragons Den on Question Time last night lambasting the unions and saying they have no place in this day and age because her employees are treated well? That's all very well but what about employers who arent't that honest? The S.O. [along with hundreds of others] was made redundant several years ago from a large company and it was the unions that got them a good redundancy package..the company that had taken them over used every trick in the book to give them as little as possible . None of them wanted to leave the company or take early retirement and, in the case of the S.O. he was too old to get a job elsewhere.

I don't see unions as the terrible bogey men that the right wing press portrays them as.

No doubt our present government would like to see the back of all unions - they have certainly always been very antagonistic towards them. Those countries that have a history of banning trades unions are not exactly shining examples of democracies, e.g.

Saudi Arabia (where trades unions are still banned)
Iraq under Hussein
Nazi Germany
The Soviet Union
Cuba
North Korea
Uganda under Idi Amin
Libya under Gaddafi
Chile under Pinochet
Fascist Spain and Italy

Conversely, the Scandinavian countries and Germany, where unionisation is fairly robust, have achieved a better power balance between employers and employees and better pay and productivity.

The Economic Policy Institute found that unions raised wages of unionised workers by roughtly 20% and that this increase is aso reflected in non-union wages.

Countries that have seen a decline in union membership, like the US, Canada and the UK, have seen a corresponding decline in pay.

The Labour Party was born out of the movement for workers' rights and therefore naturally has an affinity with the trades union movement. Trades unions and their leaders - like any other organisations or individuals - are not perfect and many criticisms can be made of them. But their political influence is, I believe, more justified than the influence of hedge funds and oligarchs who have no concern for anything but the acquisition of money and power.

I agree Ana. I'm a 'left leaner' but if I was going to comment on an individual MP or leader then I hope it would be in a reasoned way, not as a sneer.

Except of course for Farage, where all bets are off.

Eloethan, I brought this thread up again because although it seems perfectly OK to attack the tories and make sneering remarks about DC and GO, the left have been surprisingly quiet about their own parties' futures (I'm including the LibDems here as they're mentioned in the thread title).

'Right leaners' are just as entitled to comment on any thread, political or otherwise, whatever you think of the substance of their contributions.

I am talking about the ones who post quite often on this site.

Ana, I have seen several possible Labour voters saying that they dont like any of the candidates up for election.

I get the impression that a lot of the possible Labour voters are quite left wing rather than more moderate.

Would it be provocative to question the power held by the likes of Len McCluskey? It was he who manipulated the election of Ed Milliband and now history is repeating itself.

Yes, the unions have always been the backers of the Labour Party, but at what price if English voters find it too left wing? Between McCluskey and Blair, Labour has to steer a path that makes it electable and Andy Burham is not likely to be the one to do that.

Ana Since you ask, speaking as one of those "left leaners" to whom you refer, I don't like or trust any of the Labour candidates up for election. As far as I'm concerned, there's not much to discuss since none of them impresses me. I think the Tories are a bloody shower and I don't think much better of the Labour Party at the moment either.

Who knows what the future holds though. David Cameron may have his own challenges to contend with before too long.

As the poll indicated, there are more "right leaners" on Gransnet but it seems that some of those who do contribute are more comfortable making provocative comments than saying anything of any substance.

Still a lot of infighting within the Labour party about who's the best candidate for the next leader. At the moment it seems as though Andy Burnham's a shoo-in.

I'm surprised this isn't being discussed heatedly on here, given that there are so many left-leaners.

I missed them somewhere along the line.

Sorry about your mum Eloethan. I understand.
I had an unknown wart on my cheek, and was told first off, that I would have to pay to have it removed as they are no longer removed free automatically by the NHS.

soontobe It appears you're missing hearing about durhamjen's concerns regarding the problems being experienced in the NHS, so I'll update you.

In the Guardian today is a report that official statistics are showing a large rise in the number of operations being cancelled. Dr Mark Porter, leader of the British Medical Association, said that care is being rationed and so some patients are having to wait longer for treatment. Dr Peter Carter, of the Royal College of Nursing put these cancellations down to under-staffing caused by budget cuts.

Albeit for a much smaller procedure, my mum (who is 94) has experience of this. She has been waiting since May last year for a growth to be removed from her forehead. She has had these growths before and they have, up until the last 18 months or so, been removed within 5-6 months of her first appointment at the dermatology clinic. Now, over a year later, we are still waiting for an appointment for the current growth to be removed. Because it has grown bigger, it will, compared to her previous treatments, require a larger excision and will leave a noticeable scar.

www.thepeoplesassembly.org.uk/end_austerity_now_national_demonstration_saturday_20th_june?e=4f295de050c123204df7f4a5c79d8428&utm_source=thepeoplesassembly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=resonstodemo&n=2

NHS mentioned in here. I've mentioned it on a few threads since the election, soon, but you have obviously missed them. I'm sure you cannot read everything.

Well they don't want to draw attention to the 'Labour ripping itself apart' headlines in tomorrow's newspapers, do they?

<realizes that this may be the wrong thread to ask this, and must not act on gransnet as I may do in real life, and flit about subjects> Bad soontobe. Am trying to be better.
Back to Labour party. And liberals. They have gone very quiet.

dj - can I ask why you do not mention the NHS any more. You seemed scared stiff about it before the elction. But now that the conservatives are in, barely a peep about it.

Could be, rose. Or until someone else stands out from the crowd and the majority would support.

They're not exactly behaving with dignity and calm, are they? The knives seem to be out for more than just Ed!

I don't know why, but I have a feeling he may not stay in politics.
(Chuka I mean).
Did you mean a caretaker until he is more experienced dj?

That sounds a possibility dj

It has been suggested that there is a caretaker leader for Labour for two or three years. IDS was Tory leader for two or three years, before they realised how hopeless he was. Not suggesting that the Labour candidates are hopeless, but if nobody stands out yet, it might be a good way to find out. Miliband was fighting two parties. The next Labour leader will just be fighting one.

Chuka U is very young; perhaps another few years?
I know some leaders, indeed PMs, have been very young, but I think gaining more experience first is a good thing.

I haven't given it a lot of thought the past few days but must say that I am not over-enthused with the candidates so far but we do have until the autumn so maybe things will work out OK. I had intended to go to the Labour meeting last night but I was too tired.

Also very much hope that the future policies are thrashed out to the unth degree as this is the most important although a good head is vitally important as well.

Liberal should have had a small "l" - sorry.

I wonder if Keir Starmer would attract some of the more left wing but Liberal Lib Dems to Labour ...