Labour Party, Lib Dem Party - where to now.

I think that in unis, party time has somewhat taken over, surprisingly.

nightowl - I think that you were very perceptive. He was very skilled at analysing things, and being able to look after his own interests at the same time.

Labour or potential labour voters - isnt it a bit uncomfortable to change tack and lean to the right if the party isnt really politically right? Or are they getting there anyway, as the population changes?

I have been also musing whether immigrants are in fact quite right leaning, politically? Or at least the ones that vote?

I will eat Paddy Ashdow's hat if Tom Watson stands. Re the unions, I think there is some discussion going on about the voting system to be used this time. One person one vote ( ie MPs and individual Party Members) looks likely - can anyone who is a member enlighten me on this?

eloethan I take your point, and to a degree I think you are right, but we can never allow a one party state to develop even those true blues amongst us would understand the disaster that would be.

Quite a few looking to be throwing their hats into the Labour leadership ring, I don't see the Unions backing any of those known yet !

Will Tom Watson stand to get Union backing?

Yes the libdems of the likes of David Laws and the Orange Book is not a party I could ever contemplate joining

Sorry, I think my points crossed with some others but I got a phone call in the middle!

Apparently the new members joining the LDs since the results of the election were announced have risen to 5,000 rosesarered. However, I do still think they have to clarify everything they stand for and I am still concerned that they are focussing on "Liberal principles". There seems to me no recognition - at the moment - of their social democratic roots.

That may be how it is going to go and they may return to a purely Liberal Party and I am sure that will be a home for many but it will not be one for all those who saw themselves as reasonably comfortable with liberal democracy.

I also think it is not as simple as moving away from the left and into the centre ground. What does that mean? They need people to be able to identify what they stand for and either say that's what they want or that's what they don't want - hopefully, from my point of view, they will say that's what they want.

whitewave Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that Tony Blair was "allowed" to get into power because he didn't antagonise the finance sector, big business or Rupert Murdoch - in fact he and some of his colleagues courted them.

His decision to join Bush and take us into Iraq has irrevocably damaged my view of him but - after many years of Tory rule had led to a disintegrating health and education system - I do think the Labour government tried to redress some of the damage done, and, to some extent, achieved that.

I'm beginning to wonder whether it is possible now for a left of centre party to ever again win a general election. If, on the other hand, Labour can only achieve power through becoming a slightly less extreme version of the Conservative Party then I'm afraid that is not a vision I can embrace or on which I feel able to expend any more time or energy. Hopefully, there will be younger people who still have enough optimism to try and change things. It does, however, seem ironic to me that in an age when more and more young people go to university, the majority of them appear to know and care little about politics.

Agreed, but it has been done before.

Defining the centre ground is far from easy - it's not a fixed point on a compass or a map just as the Right isn't.

Every Labour MP or party spin doctor being interviewed is saying the truth. They believe that Labour leaning to left was not where the party should have gone.

You are more or less being told by those you voted in to speak for you that going back to centre ground is looking likely for Labour to recover, Chuka Umuna, Christopher Leslie, Peter Mandelson et all all saying the same. The Blair/David MilibandMiliband brigade are looking quite dare I say it 'I told you so'.

Scotland has been a drubbing for Labour but I don't think it was all about austerity and far left being the choice by many Scot voters more the desire for Independence and no party can/will fight that irrespective of the referendum.

The Labour Party now realises that it has to broaden it's appeal, to not rely on the trade unions, and to be more to the centre, and not more to the left if it has any hope of ever being elected again. so that is what it will do.
the Lib Dems, will regroup and recover in time.

GT - your post sums it all up very eloquently. Thank you.

nightowl that is why I am saying don't get hung up on him but look at how he managed to get such a landslide etc - it is his methods that could be revisited not the person, he can be put to one side as it were but look at what he achieved with regard to winning over the press etc.

I hope not GrannyTwice

I don't condemn Tony Blair because its fashionable or with the benefit of hindsight whitewave, or based only on Iraq. I always thought he was an opportunist, only looking out for himself, with an eye to his own advancement and without Socialist principles. That's why I didn't vote Labour in 1997 for the first time in my life, and have done so only twice since. I'm sure you're right, that he had some positive attributes, but I think his reputation is so tarnished (rightly so IMO) that he would do more good to the Lanour Party by keeping schtum and letting it find it's own way now.

GG - thank you for starting this thread. We all need a space in which to reflect and you have provided this. It's obvious that philosophically I am very left of centre and since Thatcher, my political life has been a struggle between what works and what I believe in. Sometimes I think I dreamed the broadly consensual politics before her. I really do think she fundementally changed our society for the worst. TB was famously interested in 'what works' and eschewed political ideology. I can see why but do wonder if you can have a sustainable political party that hasn't sorted out its core values? For me compassion has to be in there somewhere in the discourse. And we have had five unremitting years of 'othering', divide and rule and the encouragement of real hatred and despising of so many vulnerable groups which has been so successful. How can a party of the centre undo that ? The problem is that writing off sections of the population as 'undeserving' is really a very comfortable place to be isn't it? It absolves you of all responsibility because it's their 'fault ' - until it happens to you. Is it possible to have a party that encourages personal responsibility and endeavour whilst at the same time has compassion for the weak and vulnerable ? That curbs the worst excesses of the unfettered free market and does not buy into the efficacy of the 'trickle down ' effect? Is it too late?

Don't get too hung up on Tony Blair. Whilst Irag will for ever damn him, we must not forget that he was the most successful Labour PM ever, and it does no harm to listen to his opinions. It is fashionable to dismiss him, but what we need to consider is how he managed to change the Tory narrative in the 80's to a Labour narrative. I think one of the strong points was that he surrounded himself with a very strong team of people - people now vilified in the press but nevertheless they did it and won a Labour landslide. We would do well giving his tactics more consideration than being seen as irrelevant.

This together with appealing to middle England - something that the current Labour has failed to do, may well be given some serious consideration.

With luck this narrative will continue for some time and in the end hopefully the outcome will be a Political party that speaks for the majority in the UK - or England should Cameron have lost a bit of it by then

Sorry nightowl you should have been nightowl

Nightowl I have to agree that TB does not help the situation although we cannot deny his existence I suppose.

Like you, I would not see the party move "to the centre" but I would like to see it present a modern view of socialism - whatever that may be. They need to find it though as this has not happened just because of presentation (TB's forte) but because it has felt irrelevant to many.

kittylester There must be a quite a few old SDP members on here as we will be of a certain age, as they say I am not sure Tony Blair is right - certainly not when I think of the overlay to the Labour Party then, if you know what I mean.

I think one or both parties must present something the country can understand. I don't know if you saw the lady on the news yesterday who was asked about why people didn't vote Labour and she said something like "I'm not on benefits, they have nothing for me". My heart sank when I saw that. If that is the way, and I am afraid it may be, that people define the party they really do need to show the modern face - and I know I am slightly obsessed by social democracy - of socialism. I think I am obsessed because I can't see any other models of socialism that are working currently.

Whitewave, I love the idea of a family conference - all I have had so far are telephone calls with my daughter who is just too worried about her job in HE to have had thoughts about where the parties go from here and emails and Facebook with my son who will no doubt share his wisdom next time he calls. He usually has an interesting overview and he did manage to ring while the results were coming in. He was watching them in his office as it was daytime in Australia. May see daughter and almost SIL later today and they will have strong views I am sure .

I think a lot of mulling is going to happen over the next week or so.

I think Tony Blair did so much damage to the Labour Party and the country that I would really appreciate it if he would keep his opinions to himself. I for one would like never to hear his voice again, but he's so arrogant that he really does believe he has all the answers.

I would like the party to hold true to its left wing roots, but I realise that it needs to appeal to sufficient people to stand any chance of being elected. The trouble is, by veering ever more to the centre, it loses its way and forgets what it is. It's a difficult balance to strike.

I wish I knew, kitty . All I know is that with the Scotland and Europe issues over the next few years I think all parties have got to work together in some way.

DH and I were founding members of the Social Democrats and had high hopes of it being a real party of the centre! In our area, at least, the group was taken over by people who seemed to ignore the 'Democrat' element and were intent on becoming ever more left wing.

I'd love to know in which direction some of gn's left leaners see Labour going. Tony Blair has said it should be more like his version - do you agree?

All those years ago annodomini. I was so sure I had found my political home. I am trying to see this as a possibility of getting back to the principles the SDP echoed for me but it is going to be a long haul, I think.

I am concerned that the people who have appear on TV have all talked about "Liberalism" or Liberal values with not a mention of social democracy but time will tell. They have said they are going to ask the grass routes.