Charles Kennedy

I'm with night owl and others on this thread who sympathise with people who develop dependence on alcohol which I feel is like any other drug, except it's legal. I've both work and personal experience of the devastation caused in families when a much loved family member descends into alcohol dependence and abuse. I am unconvinced that the illness model is helpful, other than that nhs and other appropriate services should be readily available to those who want to stop.

I believe alcohol is too readily available and relatively inexpensive. It's rare to go to social events without alcohol being part of any celebration. The British have a long history of alcohol abuse and if Charles Kennedy's death contributes to more people discussing the damage alcohol can cause, that may be one of the many positive legacies left by this much loved public figure.
Mishap - your point about paedophiles is relevant here. Your'e right, paedophiles don't have a choice, it's how they are. The choice they do have is not to follow their instincts and yearnings. That is equally relevant for those of us who want to follow an unhealthy lifetyle and choose to smoke and drink. Many of us gransetters will have smoked at times in our lives. No one made us do it, yes it's hard to give up but we make the choice. I don't deny that all drugs, including alcohol, can get a grip but the issue of personal responsibility can't be ignored. Sorry if this sounds judgemental or prim as I don't mean it to. I have great sympathy with anyone whose life is blighted but I've seen too many lives, too many children's lives particularly, devastated by their parents inability/refusal to take responsibility for remaining sober/free of drugs.

How and why would you split a thread?

I did contact Gransnet to see if they thought it was worth splitting the thread but they don't have the technology

I do not think that a paedophile does have a choice - it is how he is. There are spectrums of sexuality and inclination in these matters - it is just unfortunate that paedophiles are inclined in a socially unacceptable and dangerous direction. They need to be treated as human beings with a problem, whilst at the same time making sure that all steps are taken to protect children.

I think it is OK to discuss alcoholism in this thread - CK's death was directly related to drink and he was very open about his problem. It does not seem inappropriate that his death should trigger such a discussion, whilst at the same time recognising his personal worth.

I really feel this discussion about alcoholism and addiction should be taken on to a new thread- and leave this one Charles Kennedy.

I've been thinking about this a lot over the last couple of days- and would be really interested in discussing responsibility/choice versus genetics/illness- and perhaps compare to other forms of addiction. I've never heard anyone say that a peadophile has no choice, for instance, and should just be given support and sympathy as he is ill.

Yes baubles so the individual tipping point for that lady was her first sip.

I agree Baubles.

There is alcoholism in my family. When I was about 17 I had my first drink in a pub. (I was spotted by nosy neighbours and it was reported back to me mum.)

She asked me how I felt, did I feel I needed to have another drink etc., and then explained that her sister and brother were both alcoholics.

Thankfully I was fine and can take or leave a drink. At the moment I don't drink at all because it upsets my stomach.

soon that isn't necessarily the case. There are people who are alcoholics from their first taste of alcohol. I believe a predisposition to it exists in many people. I once knew a very prim a proper lady who had never tasted alcohol until she was persuaded to have a small sherry at the funeral of her husband. She descended quickly into a spiral of self destruction caused by alcoholism. When she sought help and was in recovery she said she believed she had been born an alcoholic, it just needed the first drink to trigger it.

Anybody just watch Alastair Cambell talking to Andrew Marr. Very interesting.

I think that alchoholism becomes an illness. And that there is an individual tipping point.

annesixty I have extremely personal experience of what another person's alcoholism can have on family and extended family. While i agree that some problems are not of the alcoholic's making many many are and often effect others around them, and BECAUSE they are of their own making they do more to try and hide them and obliterate what they have done. If there are problems due to external forces it is often easier to admit them and talk about the problems and also ask for assistance. Admitting your own weaknesses and actions is far far harder.

Georgie 1601 There have been many discussions about Scottish independence and the SNP on Gransnet, including quite a few hot and furious discussions during the recent referendum. Gransnetters have different views on many topics and personalities and are, of course, entitled to voice them. Others are entitled to disagree and voice their own opinions. What isn't really acceptable is criticising the poster for voicing her/his opinion or just a comment. Criticising what the poster has said is fine. So, with regard to your own post, it is fine to talk about how you regard Nicola Sturgeon's and Alex Salmond's tributes to Charles Kennedy, but it is not really appropriate to voice disagreement about the right to state individual opinions made by other posters, even if they seem to you irrelevant. Note also that threads meander in all sorts of directions that no one ever anticipates. This is a forum of grannies chatting – and a few granddads – not the Oxford Debating Society.

By the way, welcome to Gransnet and I hope you enjoy being here.

I'm a new member of grand net and this is the first topic I've read. I'm very impressed by the useful information about alcoholism. However, I'm really adding a message because I was shocked by a couple of comments at the start of this conversation.

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, I thought it was really unnecessary for Grannyonce to add, while noting Nicola Sturgeon's and Alex Salmond's tributes to Charles Kennedy, that she finds Nicola Sturgeon irritating and then go on to add a link from the Spectator criticising Alex Salmond's tribute to Charles Kennedy. Both of these senior members of the SNP knew Charles Kennedy well and gave sincere and moving speeches after his death. The dear old Spectator can be relied on to do down the SNP at every opportunity and did so again on this occasion, but what did these rude remarks about the SNP have to do with Charles Kennedy?

It was the comments made by Daffydill and Tegan, however, which particularly disturbed me. They both said that Charles Kennedy's previous constituents should be ashamed of themselves for voting for another candidate in the last election. Very undemocratic. Like all but 3 of the 59 MPs in Scotland, Charles was caught up in the tidal wave of SNP voting. The reasons for the surge towards SNP were explained by our First Minister Nicola Sturgeon many times and were a reflection on Mr Kennedy's party rather than himself.

There seems to be a fear and dislike of the SNP out with Scotland? Probably also a lack of information about it. Is that a fair statement to make?

I have no medical expertise nor personal experience of close family or friends with alocoholism. However I do know people who drink heavily but are not alcoholics and know of people who drank 'socially' but developed alcoholism. That lead me to believe there was probably a physiological basis to alcoholism as well as a psychological one.

Any of us who have had 'bad habits': biting nails/ eating more than is healthy/smoking etc. will know how tough it is to break the habit. If in addition there is a physiological condition that makes it even harder ..that is tough. If people have the physiological condition plus depression/stress eased by alcohol presumably then there is the 'perfect storm'.
I am sure nobody deliberately sets out to be an alcoholic and that it steals up on people .. like the extra couple of pounds each month until one is clinically obese. It is a sad situation whatever the clinical /psychological cause is.

From what I remember of Max Pemberton writing his weekly column in the DT I don't think he was a psychiatrist, rather a Dr specialising in Mental health.

bez just to say that the problems some people have which makes them resort to alcohol is not always of their own making. This is a generalization but understandable if you have not experienced it as I sadly have.

So sorry loopylou. I didn't see your posts before I typed my essay.

I've only just come back to this thread but I'm glad the article seems to have provoked some further debate at least. Whether it should be on the thread about Charles Kennedy is another matter and I take the point that perhaps it's not really appropriate. For what it's worth I think he was an admirable man and is a very great loss to the country as well (of course) as his family and friends.

Also an apology to Soutra as my post came straight after yours and I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge how difficult it must be to have such worries about your DH. I do hope he will remain as well as possible for a very long time to come.

I don't particularly like the Daily Mail Gracesgran but I read it online and I try to keep am open mind about some of the content. As you say, sometimes there is a good, balanced article that is worth reading. I have no idea whether Max Pemberton calls himself 'the Mind Doctor' or if that is a title the DM has decided to give him, but I have read other stuff he has written (not in the Telegraph but elsewhere) and I often agree with him. I like the fact that as a psychiatrist he takes a wider view than many conventional psychiatrists. I don't see anything contentious in this article, but I accept that others do. He argues very clearly that alcoholics should receive compassion, support, and treatment, however we regard it.

I agree with him that alcoholism is not an illness. I don't think it is a lifestyle choice, or something that people set out to acquire. I think it is something that people fall into gradually for all sorts of reasons, often (as others have said) in an attempt to shut out painful feelings and traumatic experiences. I think that sometimes it starts as a social habit and becomes addictive, like many substances. I also think that some people have a predisposition to risky and addictive behaviours, but I don't think it's as simple as 'an addictive gene' as I think human psychology is far more complicated than that. It has certainly appeared in several members of my family and has destroyed lives. Unfortunately I sometimes find it difficult to practise the compassion I would like to feel for my own relatives and instead feel angry at the sheer waste of life, talents, everything. Sadly, Charles Kennedy's son may feel that anger at some stage at the loss of a father he needed throughout his childhood and beyond. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but grief at the death of an alcoholic is always complicated.

Sorry for the long post.

Thank you Bez it's pretty grim at times for us but so much worse for SIL.

She's talked many times about leaving him but says she can't because he's not safe to be left alone and she'd feel guilty if anything happened to him. He's very abusive to her and she feels trapped. He also has all the money so emotional abuse too.

I do all I can to support her her but we go round in circles. Very sad and such a waste.

Oh * loopyloo* I do so feel for your SiL . She must feel so helpless but also worthless! I send her hugs and you as well for having to witness what all this is doing to a family you love..

I have an alcoholic BIL.
He's had inpatient treatment in hospital, four times in The Priory privately, and in three NHS inpatient facilities. He chooses still to drink. He's had multiple admissions to hospital following falls which have resulted in head injuries and fractured ribs.

His alcohol consumption would kill an average person, his liver function is normal. For whatever reason (and neither he nor my SIL know why) he continues to drink probably about 21 units a day, most days of the week. He has the money, no need to work and it's his choice. Nothing it seems will halt his behaviour. He's abusive to his wife, has alienated his children and doesn't see why he should change because it's always someone else's fault.

Is that an illness/condition, a genetic predisposition (though there is no known history going back to four generations) or a lifestyle choice?

All I know is that it's destroyed his family and put me and DH off drinking alcohol other than very occasionally.

Many of the illnesses that patients life style has maybe contributed to have only reasonably recently been found to be caused by life style choices or indeed choices which prove to have health benefits. For many years it has been known that smoking for instance causes ill health even if it only is conditions such as chronic chest problems. It has also been known for many years that alcohol has vast ill health implications therefore it is a slightly different situation than how being vastly overweight causes many problems. We have all heard of the 'middle aged spread' and similar and of course being somewhat rotund at one time was a sign of being rich enough to eat well.
Some treatments for alcoholism need to have the full cooperation of the patient to be effective - such as taking a daily pill which will make them feel none too good if they imbibe! It is easy for that not to be taken and also a great many alcoholics do not think they have a problem but that everyone else is wrong!
It may well be that they succumb to the oblivion to have respite from problems but often these problems are of their own making. I have no problem with addicts being given help but the incentive for the help must come from them to be effective and sadly that is often missing and they have no interest in asking for any help or accepting any offered.

Slightly off topic perhaps but several members of my Father's family were Rechabites. Until this came up I had forgotten this and wonder if that organisation still exists. I am going back to the 1940's.

Me too, Gracesgran. The Grace of God bit, I mean.

Most ill-health, apart from infectious disease, is due to chronic conditions, and often the course of it can be affected by how much the patient contributes to its management.

Really well put janeainsworth and a perceptive view on the problem imo. That would mean that treatment of the condition should be in place but so should support for the management.

I do think to myself that "there but for the grace of God, go I" (without the "God" if it doesn't apply) would give us a little empathy and humility.