Charles Kennedy

The thing I'll remember Bill Clinton for is 'It's the economy, stupid.'

Sorry phone has gone berserk this morning
That should of course read 'homeless and unemployed'

annie I have never heard of alcoholics 'bed-blocking'.
I don't think it's helpful to stereotype them as homeless unemployed people either, although I accept some may end up hom less and enemies loved as a result of their alcoholism.
Addiction cuts across all strata of society and many alcoholics are high functioning people holding down responsible jobs.

merlotgran, sadly the majority do not look on alcoholism as an illness . How often we hear / read alcoholics are bed blocking, filling up A & E, how they are a drain on the NHS, then we have the homeless , many are alcoholics and they too are criticised , unemployed alcoholics are also condemned

Football fans probably think of George Best as a brilliant player whereas others might remember him as a hopeless alcoholic who squandered his talent. The same could be said of Paul Gascgoine.

There are quite a few self-destructing illnesses which sadly often end up defining people - like Karen Carpenter.

I think it's rather pompous to take people to task for using the word weakness.

It's only recently that alcoholism has been regarded as an illness and not just called an addiction.

merlot I was generalising, I wasn't thinking of what you had posted.

gracesgran I can in some way understand that illness or sickness can be described as - or brings about - a weakness in the literal sense.

Do you know Tegan I don't define Bill Clinton by his relationship with Monica Lewinsky although I may make assumptions about how he might act from the way he dealt with this.

With Charles Kennedy I would also see far more to him and would expect the problems with alcohol to be a footnote in history. A recent article in the Guardian said ‘It will be his decision to oppose the war in Iraq for which he will be defined as a politician." and I would agree with that.

Blair, on the other hand, seems to have lied to take us into an illegal war. That probably will define him.

Next to working in a pub, the House of Commons must be the worst place in the country to work in if you have an alcohol problem. I think a lot of people have a predisposition to addiction of one kind or another and it's often just circumstace that prevents it taking over. His alcohol problem will always define Charles Kennedy because he was so open about it [just as Iraq will define Blair and the Lewinsky affair will define Bill Clinton]; the difference being with him that in no way has that problem detracted from the love and respect that so many people [myself included] feel for the man. I hope beyond hope that, in his last days, he was aware in some way of that affection.

Just for the record....I may have said weakness but the word moral has been inserted by Grannyknot.

Lots of illnesses/addictions/conditions are referred to as weaknesses.

I heard yesterday that Charles Kennedy died of a massive haemorrhage which must have been a terribly frightening and horrible end. My ex-husband died this year of alcohol poisoning and liver failure (aged 64). He was ill for several years , it cost him his first marriage to me and his daughter. His second wife was far more tolerant than me and she and the daughter they had together loved him dearly although he didn't always give them a good time and it certainly kept them short of money as he became unable to work. We were all concerned that he might have a fatal haemorrhage as we warned by the doctors but in the end after many episodes of having to have fluid drained from his abdomen and numerous hospital episodes he slipped away. In the last few years he had given up alcohol completely but it was too late the damage had already been done. I don't know if he could be described as having an illness or a weakness or a condition as it all started out with this love of a good party and the taste of beer and cider. What I do know is it devastated two families and our two daughters will probably always carry this with them.

I do not understand why any illness should be described as a weakness. It is an illness. I have always worried about the way people talk about "fighting" cancer as it implies that dying means you did not fight hard enough and I am sure no one would want to say that.

If we accept that alcoholism is an illness, triggered in some people, not by moral weakness but by the way their body adapts and uses the substance, then we need medical intervention not moral opprobrium. I think that the idea of it being a "weakness" comes from it being seen as a mental rather than physical problem and, of course, we haven't understood mental illnesses very well either, have we.

I can see no way it is a weakness, anymore than my inability to process or produce enough thyroid hormone is a weakness. I can do things to help as can someone whose body reacts extremely to alcohol can but it is basically a medical problem and one we have yet to solve.

We have often blamed the patient for the illnesses for which we have not yet found a cure - hundreds of years ago we use to relate it to sin! You would think we had moved on from that by now.

Hi annie yes of course I understand that illness is a weakness. I guess it's just that the word "weakness" used in the context of alcoholism is often preceded (even if unspoken) by the word "moral". And that doesn't necessarily apply across the board, certainly not in the case of Charles Kennedy.

All the tributes I have read did focus on the good things he did, Anniebach.
I don't really understand what you are saying.
If any illness can be described in terms of weakness, what's wrong with saying that Charles Kennedy suffered from alcoholism?
Would it have been wrong to mention heart disease, if he had suffered from that?

Grannyknot, any illness can be described as a weakness .

Jane, I agree alcoholism is an illness , I am not saying it should not be discussed , just saying I think tributes so soon after his death could have forcused on all the good he did

When David Blunkett dies his blindness will be spoken of so differently because he overcame so many odds stacked against him , poor Kennedy did not. Everyone has a right to speak as they wish in a tribute , for me his alcoholism was not a triumph of his life, saddened me that it was brought into tributes as quickly as rigor mortis set in

Annie I agree with GK.
I've always thought of aloholism as an illness. It's no more a weakness than diabetes, or arthritis, or cancer, and just as deserving of compassion.

I'm sure that when David Blunkett dies, his blindness will be mentioned, but in the context of how he overcame his disadvantage. I feel the same about Charles Kennedy.

annie I'm so sorry that your daughter struggles with alcohol addiction.

I don't think of alcoholism as a weakness...

Sorry to disagree, Anniebach but all the tributes to CK I have heard have been full of respect and admiration. The references to his alcoholism have expressed sadness rather than highlighting his weakness.

On Have I Got News for You tonight they showed two clips of Charles Kennedy. They were excellent, particularly when he bested Jeremy Clarkson.

janeainsworth, I am fully aware of difference between alcohol and cigarette addiction. I thought it a pity his alcoholism was discussed before cause of death had been established .

Grannyknot , I am all for the stigma of alcoholism being addressed , my daughter is an alcoholic , sadly it will not be long before the press print tales of his behaviour when drunk by someone 'close to ' . I just think a few days expressing respect for the man and his work would have been a more worthy tribute before his weaknesses were discussed. I doubt he would wish to be remembered for failing to overcome his illines but remembered for his work for his constituency, his party and his country .

In the USA alcohol and drug addiction are seen as disabilities, I wonder if we would change our attitudes towards them if they were regarded as such here. There is also the interesting question of how much his weakness contributed to his character. The late Mo Mowlam asked her doctor a question about how long her brain tumour might have been developing and how much it might have contributed to her feisty attitude-something he wasn't able to answer. Maybe one of the reasons other politicians seem colourless and less committed is because they are too busy trying to appear perfect.

Annie There is a big difference between alcohol addiction and nicotine addiction.
Nicotine addiction is a health risk but it doesn't impact on an individual's ability to function in the way that alcohol or drug addictions do.
That Charles Kennedy was an alcoholic and achieved all he did, and maintained his integrity in spite of his illness, makes him an even greater man IMHO.
I think being open about such things, as Alistair Campbell has been, can only be helpful to anyone also suffering to see that it is possible to recover, albeit a fragile recovery sometimes, as the tragedy of Charles Kennedy has shown.

annie I get what you're saying, but if someone's problems with addiction is spoken about in the context of the whole person, as it has been in this instance, I think it reduces stigma and encourages understanding. So, in my view, it serves an important purpose.

Thank your for you post ... not you

Thank you for you post shysal. I imagine many were wondering. I just keep thinking how often we don't fully recognise the value of a person until they have gone.

I hope his son and his ex-wife took some solace from the wonderful words said about him in parliament on Wednesday. I am sure there will be a many in his constituency who are mourning his passing. As the SNP MP said he was swept away by the unstoppable tide of Scottish Nationalism.

There has been a statement today saying that he died after a major haemorrhage, which was a direct result of his alcoholism. Such a waste of a life!