What would you do if you were Italy?

Do you mean just like the peaceful, stable, economically sound country Iraq has become since George W. "intervened"?

"A Downing Street spokeswoman confirmed that Britain would not take part in a proposed relocation distribution across the EU over the next two years of 40,000 asylum seekers who have made it across the Mediterranean to Italy and Greece.

“We do not support relocation. We think our approach should be focused on not creating further pull factors for migrants,” she said.

The Italian prime minister, Matteo Renzi, suggested a failure to agree the relocation plan could lead to his country denying landing rights to migrants saved by foreign ships or they could begin granting temporary Schengen residence permits to migrants to allow them to move within Europe. “If the European Council choose solidarity, then good. If it doesn’t we have a plan B ready but that would be a wound inflicted on Europe,” he said."

I feel that any answer we could come up with is going to be appalling in one way or another. All countries are loath to intervene since Iraq but maybe we will have to ... or not. I can understand those thinking we should take some of the refugees and those who don't. Heaven help us as whether we do something or not it will not be ideal and could be catastrophic.

And what was Iraq like before, absent?
And what would it have become like without intervention?

I dont know the answer to that, but when was Iraq last peaceful, stable etc?

If life is too bad in the Middle East and Africa where the migrants are coming from, should other countries help to bring more stability to those countries? To bring more peace?

Iraq was stable under its former dictator, just a rather bad place to be if you were anti-Baath party or a Marsh Arab. It was also economically viable until the West introduced sanctions. Terrorism, other than state terrorism, did not exist there. The USA was a huge supporter of the regime for a considerable time – particularly throughout the Iran-Iraq War. Invading the country did not improve life for the people of Iraq, many of whom were killed or maimed in the war, and, in spite of the demise of a tyrannical regime, has resulted in political and social chaos.

Western countries and the USA, in particular, are huge supporters of stability but often at a huge cost to the citizens of the country concerned. Chile was a case in point and a good example of why America should not be regarded as the world's policeman.

Good post Gill, and GracesGran.
What a problem this is, and I Was thinking the other day, like JaneRowena,
That if it was to go on and on, there would be some pretty empty countries left.They want to come here for a better life, which makes them economic migrants , and who can blame them? however, the more they are accepted the more will come, and will be a never ending stream.I wonder what happens to the boats used after they are intercepted? ditto the boat crews.
would sending them to prison ( the crew) have an effect? as Joan says, in a very good post, what Tony Abbot is doing in Australia is very harsh, holding people in camps on islands.The problem is that nobody wants these people because there is no end in sight, if there were a finite number, then they could be sent to different countries in Europe.Nobody ever thought that such huge numbers of migrants/ asylum seekers and refugees would be moving around the world.

But Iraq might now become better for ordinary citizens, now that the tyrannical regime has gone?

What's the difference between an economic migrant and a refugee?
Many of them are fleeing from IS. Do you think they should stay in Syria just because they are worried that they might be thought of as trying to better themselves rather than keep themselves alive?
I do not think many of them are thinking of the difference between being economic migrants and refugees.
I think Amnesty might beg to differ.

www.amnesty.org.uk/libya-abduction-torture-rape-exodus-mediterranean

Pre Obama, the USA would have been a lot stronger about IS.

Europe is not going to tackle IS, as it cant get countries to agree on things.

Other countries on their own, wont tackle IS, but they will help the USA tackle IS.

Meanwhile...

I read the link dj [good link]

Someone suggested that they could go to parts of Eastern Europe but I heard on the radio that one of those countries doesn't want any and that some have been beaten and imprisoned.

Is there no country that wants them?
None at all? That is sad.

I am concious of the fact that two of my children work in other countries' [one in Europe and one not]and another one is currently working abroad on a short term visa [not EU]. And they all seem to be welcome in those countries.

I suppose the issue is jobs.
One of mine, especially, does a job that there is a huge shortage of worldwide.

I am not even sure where I am going with this post.
Sadness mainly I suppose.

In the past, there have always been countries willing to take people.
The world does indeed seem to have enough people in that case.

Nonnie that was me. Many of the Eastern European countries are signed up to the Schengen Agreement, and as such will be obliged to accept their quota, whether they like it or not. In any case as they are some of the main beneficiaries of free movement I think it would be good if a bit of movement were to come their way for a change!

BTW I don't think there is a lot of solidarity in the EU as far as a crisis like this is concerned, it strikes me that most countries adopt a territorial approach in protecting their own interests and the European ideal of us as a one nation homogeneous mass gets kicked into the long grass Brussels has been floundering with this problem for a long time now, there doesn't seem to be any consensus on how to deal with it, Italy and Greece are just left to do what they can without any help. It looks like it's going to be a long term problem which is some ways is insoluble.

Terri I agree with you but just don't think it will happen. DH told me the Polish PM said she didn't want any immigrants! If, as I heard, they bully anyone who tries to enter their country as a refugee, word will soon get round and they won't try to go there.

I agree their is no solidarity but don't think it is a surprise. If it was a one-off event all countries would 'do the right thing' knowing there would be an end to it but as it is ongoing everyone is pulling up the drawbridge.

I still think we should all be doing more to enable people to stay in their own countries rather than leave. Be that preventing war or helping economies. I said that near the beginning of this thread and nothing has caused me to change my mind.

Nonnie. I hope this is not the case ( migrants being sent to Eastern European countries) I lived in one of them for 5 years. Many of them can't accept their own ethnic minorities (Roma) let alone people from Africa and the Middle East.

Soontobe. Are you aware of the Sunni and Shia. The people of Iraq can't form a sustainable government because of these two tribes. Saddam kept a lid on it as did Tito in Yugoslavia. Once these people are removed, chaos.
Why are you confused that your children are welcome in countries where their skills are needed. Think about it.

Why are you confused that your children are welcome in countries where their skills are needed. Think about it.

Well in that case, the first thing to do is find out what skills the migrants have. Different countries still want different skills.

Yes, I am aware of Sunni and Shia.

And those who dont have skills, spread amongst different countries.

Soontobe. If only it was that simple. So, where would you interview these people. Would that be at the first hotel they book into. That's assuming that they have carried their CVs with them, and their proof of qualifications. And assuming that they speak a Northern European language. Where are the interpreters coming from?
And of course lets not forget that many of these people will have 'lost' their passports on their journey.

Petra, so you are so right about tyrants having kept the lid on tribal/religious/ethnic dissent. This is a horrible truth, but it does bring us closer to understanding the supressive tyranny if Tito, Saddam, Gaddafi et al.

And now I'm going to mention the unspoken fear behind the rejection of refugees: Islam.

Islamic terrorism as created much of the crisis, while simultaneously stopping countries and their people from being willing to help Muslim refugees. They are fearful of importing the very thing that created refugees in the first place.

And this is the current horrible truth.

www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/george-osborne-wrong-say-link-must-be-broken-asylum-claims-pmqs-0

petra, those are very simple things to sort out really. May be a bit time consuming but doable.
If they say they can cut hair, give them some hair to cut, with trained hairdressers looking on.
Ditto chefs.
Ditto mechanics. etc.

I think George Osborne was right the link must be broken. Most ordinary people in Britain and Europe do not want these people, refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants call them what you want. Enough is enough.

Blimey mag