Terror attacks in France and Tunisia/now

Hmmm. Isn't being found a council flat the same as being given a home? How many immigrants immediately take out a mortgage?

TerriBull, my point is they have not been given homes, they have chosen to live in another country, this is why I think it wrong to say of people who come to live here - we have given them homes , I accept this will not be agreed with but it's how I feel about it

So how is that any different for the Muslim community over here, Terribull?

I think you will find Anniebach the majority of retirees in Spain and France have bought their own homes. We hear often how those in Spain in particular, have been affected by the property crash reducing the value of their homes, sometimes precluding them from returning here because they no longer have the cash to buy here. Of course they will be using those countries public services but they will also be spending their pensions/savings and putting money in the economies over there.

rosesarered, there are British Muslims who are not second , third or tenth generation who have been given homes here, there are British converts to the faith, and sorry but I think to say of anyone we have given them a home here is a little England attitude. People come to this country, British people move abroad, have those who retire to Spain, France etc been given homes. Yes we have given shelter to many nationalities such as Jews during the war, many from other countries have come to live here and brought much to benefit us ,

Rosesared Muslim extremists are not the only ones in Britain today.
There are active groups preaching anti-Semitism, and far right groups like the BNP and Britain First.
They may not pose the same physical threat to us as ISIL does, but they are infiltrating ideas of hate and undermining the fabric of our society even so.

Anniebach, of course there are plenty of Muslims born here, that goes without saying, since they are the children and grandchildren of Asian people who were given a home here. not a little Englander stance at all, from anything that I have posted, Or anyone else either come to that.
This thread was started about the killings in Tunisia, and since then the thread has wandered off down really too many byways.
There will always be killing sprees by lone gunmen with a grudge, but these killings are ISIS inspired done by Muslim extremists, and has TerriBull has said in her last post, anyone who lives/works/ visits regularly London has a real worry now, if you live in Wales then perhaps you can afford to be more relaxed in your views.most others cannot!

I can only state my own case and what I feel is quite simply "fear". Fear that in spite of our security services best efforts we will have a Tunisia atrocity on British soil, possibly London. I know it could happen absolutely anywhere, but we are top of their hit list at present. I can't imagine how it must feel to have your child/wife/husband's corpse come back in body bag after waving them off on holiday when they were very much alive and yes I'd be like the female vicar who lost her daughter as a result of the bombings on the London underground, I wouldn't forgive either. All the marches for hope, peace will not change a committed terrorists intent to maim and destroy. As far as I'm concerned the linking of arms of European leaders after the Charlie Hebdo massacre was posturing, they showed what they would call solidarity but they hadn't lost anyone so it wasn't really their grief. That grief will be forever with the relatives of those killed. Incidentally I thought the cartoons were insensitive and crass and the publishers were foolish to insult Muslims in that way.

I also fear the spread of the caliphate and it's desire to expand their territory. I think what we have we should hold dear. Our society whilst not perfect is better than many places and it's taken us 1000 years to reach the democratic stage we are at now.

Do not call me a little Englander - my grandfather came to live in this country in 1919 heavily accented with a love of garlic and olive oil in a time of Brown Windsor Soup and boiled to b*****y cabbage and set up a business when foreigners were viewed with distrust by some. He was a Roman Catholic and people could be sniffy about that faith. My own father was dark and swarthy and didn't look English, he did tell me he was occasionally called a "wop" at school. I had a foreign mispronounced maiden name which I only off loaded when I married my first husband for another foreign name. Following family traditions my husband wasn't English either he came here as an articled clerk studying to be a chartered accountant. I know, possibly second hand, what it's like to be a foreigner in a strange country. I do know that both my grandfather and my ex husband wanted to be here because they thought it was better than what they left behind.

Atrocities by crazed right wing gunmen such as the one in Norway and the shooting in the church in Charleston are without a doubt as awful as any other. No one could have possibly have foreseen either of those massacres - but ISIS have made it clear they are cranking up their operations and we in the UK are in their sights.

Not all Muslims have been given homes here, some have, including the Emwazi family who produced the delightful Jihadi John lover of sharp knives. Perhaps that's who rosesarered had in mind.

And all extremists are a real threat , or are the 85 young Norwegians gunned down by a right wing extremist of no importance

rosesarered, not all Muslims have been given homes here , there are British born Muslims, British citizens from many generations of British citizens who have converted to the Muslim faith . I despair that some claim - we have given homes to, very much a little englander stance .

Who are we to have empathy for hmmmn?and yes, they were given a home here, not talking about the actual bricks and mortar naturally, but that this country actually ' gave them a home' and most of them have done well through hard work like any citizen here.never mind ' extremist groups of all kinds' ....... That is woolly reasoning, we are talking about Muslim extremists and the very real threat that they pose.I don't care if you find that patronising or not.

I know it's a gloomy view, but I don't think that will ever happen .
The Muslim population in France is about 10%. After the Charlie Hebdo massacre some schools in our region questioned their pupils about it. Most Muslim pupils denied it had even happened. Or if it had happened, it was the Mossad, trying to implicate the Muslims.
This is what young people are being told by their parents, fearing the children will stray from their religious roots.

I don't know if you are referring to my post or not Rosesared when you ridicule the 'handwringing about Muslims being between a rock an a hard place', but I would humbly suggest that having some empathy for the situation of others might go some way to reducing the hatred that is threatening our society from extremist groups of all kinds.

I find your observation
"The present generation along with their parents and even grandparents have been given a home here with full access to all that British citizens are entitled to"
quite patronising - the first generation weren't given anything - they made a home for themselves all those years ago, and the subsequent generations have exactly the same rights as you or me and certainly as my own children who were all born abroad.

Good last two posts from you TerriBull.If anyone here wants to do a thread about past Colonial history, or any past mistakes and atrocities, then why not start one? it all fogs the reasoning and debate about the killings in Tunisia and extremists in our midst.We face an awful threat both here and in other countries, and all this hand wringing about how Muslims here are between a rock and a hard place is ridiculous.The present generation along with their parents and even grandparents have been given a home here with full access to all that British citizens are entitled to, and most of them manage very well and are happy here and would certainly not trade it all in for living anywhere else.The moderate majority though, must make their feelings known in the mosque and not sit quietly listening to extremist hollerings from he pulpit.I feel that they could make a big difference by doing that.

Thank you for the link annodomini, can't always remember the finer detail, I know we weren't allowed to hear his actual voice for a long time.

Gerry Adams addressed the Oxford Union on 5th March 1987.

bufvc.ac.uk/tvandradio/lbc/index.php/segment/0002000136001

I don't disagree with you JA, I think the figures you have given re: the IRA are interesting, and not unsurprising in retrospect.

I can also see that for some young Muslims living here is akin to being caught between a rock and hard place. Although there are others of 2nd and 3rd generation under going a metamorphosis of their own volition back to a hard line version of Islam, puzzling their own parents and grandparents who give the impression that they don't share those views at all. I wonder just how much influence radical extremists who are given a platform at universities such as the one who conspired to blow up the aforementioned Ministry of Sound have on their audience. Allegedly there are 100 extremists a year who lecture at universities and espouse rhetoric such as "we as Muslims reject the idea of freedom of speech and even the idea of freedom". I can't remember now but were the IRA's spokespeople allowed into universities and other public places to incite violence and further their cause. I'm not forgetting of course we have to take on line grooming out of the argument during the times they were operating.

The French government are calling it Daesh

Apparently DC prefers ISIL.

Not sure if it matters at this point. We (including the muslim population) all know who they are now.

Sorry to be going back a bit but I thought nelliemoser had a good point about young people/exclusion/cyclical nature of uprisings against whoever. Radical Islam is a good example.

Out of interest during PMQ's Conservative MP Rehman Chishti asked for the use of the word 'Daesh' to be used rather than 'Islamic State' etc. Good .

It is my belief that the term 'Daesh' is more acceptable to the Muslim population who are not fundamentalist and disassociate themselves to ISIS/ISIL/DAESH. Not only because it more acceptable to Muslims, it will concentrate minds that it is a specific group, not the Muslim faith for those who see no difference.

I have read through this thread and I have not posted much but I would like to say that there is a debate about the 'perceived' feeling of animosity in the UK toward the Muslim Faith and those who live in the UK. I think there is by far more consensus in the UK that there is a vast difference between being a Muslim and being a Muslim fundamentalist than some posters believe.

I do know that there are some of the Muslim faith that are actually afraid of what some mosques are preaching and the creeping of fundamentalism that has taken place over many years..

To my mind we can no longer use polite/politically correct debate as to the danger of Daesh, it is a war against the world and not just Christianity, The West etc. they are murdering Muslims, women and childrenchildren the world over yet the world is stuck in a political maelstrom of incapability to protect it's citizens from their barbarity.

What a pity the likes of NATO, The UN, Russia, The EU , America, Arabic, African, Asian Nations can't see that until the world unites against Islamic Fundamentalism /Daesh every country will be a target for the murder of their own people. It is the arrogance, pig headed leaders of the so called democratic , free world that gives the b-----s a free hand.

Terribull You say "I don't buy the argument that somehow killing innocent people is understandable because you aren't having a very nice life here."

I don't think that those (young) British Muslims who say they don't have a very nice life here are necessarily saying that they support or understand the killing of innocent people.
I heard a security expert the other day referring to surveillance at the height of the IRA troubles. He said they knew that there were hard core of about 500 people who would go out and actually kill people. Then there were another 10,000 or so who would help them, but not actually detonate a bomb or pull a trigger. Then there were thousands more who liked the idea of a united Ireland, and supported the ideals, but whose support went no further than that. Of course the majority abhorred the violence. The problem for the security services was working out which group people belonged to.
I think it's similar with the British Muslim community.

I think it must be really difficult being a second or third generation young British Muslim, often with pressures to conform to two very different cultures.
It's no wonder that some of them find it almost intolerable.

And no, I'm not excusing violence in any way.

I have wondered that Galen.

TerriBull I think you make some very good points. I think we should also bear in mind that these terrorists are not just attacking former colonial powers, for which some justification however unconvincing might be produced. They are attacking anyone and any body that opposes them and many innocent and uninvolved people all over the world in all continents. Their aim is to disrupt the proper functioning of government so that they can seize control in the ensuing chaos.

Hear,hear,TerriBull. And why did they attack Tunisia? Because it's a secular country that respects women.

Just wanted to add that I thought the Tunisians that did everything they could to protect the people on the beach and nearby shops were brave and heroic and I'm sorry their tourist industry will suffer as a result of the terrorist attacks.