a la carte Europe

Am I mistaken or are all the arguments against taking in refugees the same as those that have been used throughout history? "They will take our jobs and homes, they take over, they don't mix, there isn't room." Each wave of immigrants from the Hugenots, the Jews, the West Indians, the Ugandans and even the Irish have all settled here and integrated. Shouldn't we learn from our mistakes and recognise the benefits they bring.

Thanks for explaining NZ's situation absent . I'm not totally au fait with NZ's topography so It might seem they aren't entirely able to do much, but the Australian response is indeed appalling . Sending 'illegals ' to PNG as I think they do is beyond belief. But then, the 'Tenpound Poms' who set off for a wonderful life in Oz in the 50's weren't treated all that well either.

I have some Kiwi friends who have a holiday home in our village ...they are due here for their annual vacation in a few days time..... hmmm.... might pursue the subject after a glass or three of something!

Well said roses.

Exactly Petallus, my thoughts as well.Britain, particularly England, as that is where the majority of migrants end up, is now undergoing what could be called ' migrant fatigue' and no wonder.No doubt we, as a country, would feel more welcoming to people who really need help, if we didn't feel we were sinking under a wave of bogus asylum seekers , economic migrants, and what feels like half of the African continent, all homing in here like heat seeking missiles.

durhamjen I was speaking generally (not just about GN).

I have been to one or two dinner parties where those present wax eloquent about the need to be charitable to those in straightened circumstances who wish to enter our country. They say this as they sit at their well-stocked tables and pour another bottle of expensive wine.

Some of us may well give to charity but for most of us I believe it is never going to be enough to seriously jeopardize our own (and our children's) lifestyles. I give myself but if I suddenly fell on hard times and had to choose between charity and eating I would chose the latter.

Some people in this country will have difficulty in finding homes and jobs and will have to manage on ever reducing benefits if we allow too many people into this country. Some live in villages where the immigrant population makes up about a third of the total and schools and other services are unable to cope.

Incidentally, I was struck by an article in yesterday's Times by Janice Turner. She says 'how much more welcome would gassed exhausted Syrians be if Britain hadn't lately admitted 200,000 Romanians and Bulgarians? That they are vastly different cases - war traumatised refugees versus mainly low-paid economic migrants - isn't widely appreciated'.

I hope it is ok to carry on?

absent and Elegran.
We are not super human. We have limitations.
I think actually, that I have answered your posts as much as I can now.

Heck. I have just realised that this is not the Stephen Fry thread, but a thread started by TerriBull in News and Politics.

Elegran, I am not an expert. No one can claim to be an expert on things like this.

"We are not people that function in a non human way. And we are not expected to.
We were not made like that. He did not make us like that."

What?

I am trying to do what Jesus did. Bearing in mind that I am human and not the Son of God of course.
So Jesus did Pick n Mix too?

No one here should forget that God is aware of everything we do, say and think.
I just feel I need to say that.

I don't want to get into a religious argument with an expert like soontobe, so it is just as well that she has said her last say on this, but a "neighbour" doesn't have to be of one's own country - he can be a stranger, even one who is generally considered an alien and a potential threat. The Samaritans were foreigners and of a different religion and different politics.

" But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbour?”

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.
A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.
So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him.
The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbour to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

That's what I call "Pick 'n Mix" religion. If you believe the lot soon as you keep saying, then you cannot pick and choose. You are doing precisely what you condemn: interpreting the bible to suit yourself. It is of course what everyone does. Living by the NT is a huge challenge, because it asks us to do things that are not easy. If you believe what it says, then you should strive to do what it says.

I am not blind to the potential problems of uncontrolled immigration. I just think we need to start from a point where we recognise their humanity and their problems, and our duty to discuss with other nations how we might help them; rather than starting from the position that they will be taking from us. Who knows what they might bring to enhance our society? It is not an easy problem to solve - that much is indisputable - but a defensive stance is not tenable. We live in a global world and can no longer remain in ignorance of the miseries that others are suffering. If we know about the suffering, it cannot be right to do nothing.

Not a lot, no. I was partly going by what someone said upthread about New Zealand.
If they havent the room, they havent the room.

soontobe Do you know anything about New Zealand?

I use what Jesus did or didnt do, as a guide.

He did not tell us to take all the sick, lame etc into our houses. I was a stranger and you welcomed me, is the New Revised Standard Version part. Which is not the same as yours Soutra. And is why I choose the New Revised Standard Version instead of others, because put together as a whole, it works together.

We are not people that function in a non human way. And we are not expected to.
We were not made like that. He did not make us like that.

It is not an I'm all right Jack.
We have food to share. True We have some beds in our houses to share true. But other stuff, as a country we DO NOT HAVE.
We need the full package, or at least a workable one.
And there are plenty of posters on gransnet who are always saying about the things that this country do not have. TODAY.

I am emphasing, as some vital things seem to be overlooked. And I dont intend to repeat myself again.

The only answer is to leave the EU and then we can control our own borders.

absentgrandmna New Zealand's population is, indeed about 4.4 million and in total the islands that comprise New Zealand make the country a little larger than the UK. However, some parts of New Zealand are virtually uninhabitable – not such a large proportion of the country as the desert interior of Australia – but substantial in some areas. Some of the larger cities, particularly Auckland, where the jobs are concentrated, just like London and the South-east of England, have a serious housing crisis, also like London and the South-east of England. The Government has recently been selling off social housing which also contributes to the shortage of affordable homes. There are also other economic concerns, not least the plummeting world price of dairy products, New Zealand's largest export.

There are also issues in this part of the world concerning refugees/illegal immigrants from South-east Asian countries travelling in unseaworthy boats to seek new lives. They mostly go to Australia where they are treated with extreme harshness. New Zealand is so isolated that it is rarely the first port of call. However, I don't think the egregious John Key is quite so ruthless and inhumane as his Oz counterpart Tony Abbott and some of these desperate people have been allowed into the country.

Of course, neither New Zealand nor Australia is part of the EU and, although both still Commonwealth countries, they were heavily sidelined by the UK when it joined what was then the Common Market.

Do I see the difference
Love thy neighbour as thyself means precisely that - just as you would not let your child starve while you had food, we must not turn our backs on the plight of refugees while we get fatter and more affluent.

How patronising can you get?
I am not unaware of the economic and political implications of restricting immigration, but to suggest that every migrant allowed into this country will be depriving one UK resident of a job/school place/hospital bed or mental health appointment is a prime example of "I'm all right Jack so you may be persecuted or starving, but sorry, you can't come in".

I am in fact not a proponent of unlimited immigration, I believe we need to know the figures and plan accordingly, but to reduce it to your simplistic panic-mongering shows a lamentable lack of charity.

"For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. "

English Standard Version
‎Matthew 25:36 - ‎Matthew 25:34 - ‎English Standard Version - ‎Matthew 25:35 NLT

Good post Petallus.we already take a large number of immigrants from a lot of different countries and cultures, plus all the ones from the EU who are legally entitled to be here ( another mistake.)enough is enough.

It is Love your neighbour as yourself. I have highlighted the as part.

It cannot be right to take away jobs, school places, hospital beds, mental health appointments from 1 person, and then give them to a different person instead. What is the point of that?

Someone mentioned that New Zealand have room and jobs etc. That is a different matter. They could take migrants, who would not then go on to take things away from someone else.

Do you see the difference?

I agree with Soutra. Whatever happened to Christian charity, soon?

Petallus, how do you know what effect accepting more refugees will have on those with high ideals? You do not know how much any of us give to charity? You do not know how often we help with food banks and refugee groups.
I find that quite an insulting thing to say to everyone on here.

petallus, I think you're absolutely right.

Jesus will judge everyone, Soutra.

I agree with soontobe. The point is, we simply do not have the capacity to love an infinite number of neighbours.

As I said before, those who feel strongly that we should extend our hospitality to everyone who needs it could contribute extra funding in some way and open up their own homes (in other words, put their money where their mouths are).

I have noticed that sometimes the highest ideals are held by people who really are not going to be all that adversely affected by policy of unrestricted access to this country.