Greece

There are lies, damned lies and statistics accountancy.

Elegran

Ain't that the truth

'A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always depend on the support of Paul' wrote G.B. Shaw.

This is why the Greeks voted No.

Yes but there is the 'Fly away Peter, Fly away Paul' story too.

Don't know that story POGS thought it was a child's song

I love that GB Shaw quote Anya!

I heard that Bez and would not be at all surprised if it is true. I used to work for a very successful - very right wing in his way - serial entrepreneur. He used to say "never let the accountants run the company, they will end up by bleeding it dry because of their lack of vision". I think this is true of the "accountants" running the Euro too.

I have a feeling Capitalism has gone mad (probably always was as with all extremes). We tended to believe in a balanced economy for about thirty years after the war but now any feeling of real "one nation conservatism" or the need to give comfort to our fellow man seems to be disappearing. "Economy" now seems to be all about money with nothing to take account of our biggest asset - the people involved.

There is a quote attributed to John Maynard Keynes: Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all.

Isn't it time that all those who see themselves as Conservative ask themselves if they really believe in unfettered capitalism. They are not the same thing. Those who ignore the needs of the Greeks will be happy to ignore the needs of the poor and vulnerable in this country. Let's hope that is never them..

I think capitalism has gone a bit mad in this country.
I used to be glad when the Stock Market went up.
Now I just think, rightly or wrongly, are those companies being too greedy, and not paying their workers a living wage.

And not treating them properly.

Leaving aside right and left wing politics...no one, neither individual nor government can live outside their means.

It will all have to be repaid eventually, or, the individual or government will be bankrupted.

soontobe Debts have been written off in the past. Particularly in very poor countries
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_of_developing_countries

But Greece isn't a developing' country.

I would like to know what was offered to them which they refused. then I might understand it all a bit better.

I think of it in terms of family because it is all too big for us 'normal' people to fully grasp. If a member of my family had got themselves deeply in debt I would help them out but then insist they agreed on a way of at least living within their means and, if they were able, put a plan in place to repay me. I most certainly would not simply write off the debt as they would learn nothing from that.

Nonnie

Then you have fully grasped it.

One bit I don't understand is why they seem to think that if Greece drops out of the EU the whole structure will eventually collapse.
And can they just drop everything and leave? They must have signed up to all sorts of obligations.

The trouble is, Nonnie and Anya a government is not an individual or a family or a business. This country was pretty Keynsian at one time as his theories helped in the 1930s but we seem to have gone a long way from these and back to bean counting rather than economics.

Keynes stated that if Investment exceeds Saving, there will be inflation. If Saving exceeds Investment there will be recession. One implication of this is that, in the midst of an economic depression, the correct course of action should be to encourage spending and discourage saving. This runs contrary to the prevailing wisdom, which says that thrift is required in hard times. In Keynes’s words, “For the engine which drives Enterprise is not Thrift, but Profit.”
*http://www.maynardkeynes.org/maynard-keynes-economics.html

Before gaskets are blown this also means that, when we times are good we should be saving.

The proposal consists of two documents, titled "Reforms For The Completion Of The Current Program And Beyond" and "Preliminary Debt Sustainability Analysis."

blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2015/06/30/read-the-greek-referendum-documents/

I've not read them, BTW, I am just passing on the info, so don't ask me to explain them.

Not everyone agrees with Keynes but I agree that we should 'mend the roof when the weather is good'.

I think the powers that be have to think a lot wider than Greece because whatever the solution to help them out will then be requested by the rest of southern Europe when they need help.

Keynesianism emphasises the role that fiscal policy can play in stabilising the economy. In particular Keynesian theory suggests that higher government spending in a recession can help the economy recover quicker. Keynesians say it is a mistake to wait for markets to clear like classical economic theory suggests.

Monetarism emphasises the importance of controlling the money supply to control inflation. Monetarists are generally critical of expansionary fiscal policy arguing that it will cause just inflation or crowding out and therefore not help.

Two conflicting theories....and that's all they are theories!

Let's hear it for common sense!

I still don't know what it is that the Greek government refused to do. What exactly was meant by "austerity"? Its talked about a lot but does it just mean eg no pay rises, redundancy for public service workers or what?
Whatever the case its time for their government to step up and govern -get their economy going, employment up and taxes to pay for it all collected. Boring hard stuff but better than their current cant pay won't pay stance.

Read in this week's Sunday Times:
"many voters....were undecided or confused about what they were voting for: the question on the ballot paper is complicated and runs to 74 words"

See my link of 07-Jul-15 11:50:03 Jane10 or rather, the two links on the page that my link goes to. They take some reading, but it does show what austerity measures the Greek Government was prepared to agree to.

It looks as though the govt would have done it, but not without general backing so that they stayed in power, which they didn't get. Not surprising really, as the measures would be unpopular.

Let's hear it for common sense!

Your common sense may not be mine though Anya. You may think that which I consider to be common sense absolute stupidity and vice versa. What everyone most needs to be aware of, in my opinion, is the belief that they are the only holders of common sense ... always a bit worrying when people believe they have the received truths and no one else does