Longer opening hours on Sunday

I do wonder what it says about our values as a society. Longer opening hours in pubs was supposed to introduce a "cafe " drinking culture in the UK like in some European countries as opposed to "getting bladdered" by closing time. Pub landlords had to find the extra staff and did it work? No, drunks just staggered out of pubs and wine bars at all hours of the day.
In a similar way, we have a massive debt problem across society so is opening shops for even longer really a good idea? We all know the scenario, "I see, I like, I want, I can't afford it, but I'll max out my credit cards and I'll be happy".
Sociologists or is it psychologists know how the pleasure of purchasing diminishes with possession , in other words, wears off until you go shopping again. I am not advocating shutting shops to save us all from bankruptcyany more than shutting pubs stops people drinks GN, but is it really necessary to " boost the economy"? At whose expense. Retailers have to cover their costs and show a profit, so the extra staff, store energy etc will have to be paid for. I leave you to guess who will be paying for them.

That culture has passed me by, eloethan, thankfully. And I think it probably passes by, or is passed by a lot of people. If our education system cannot help assuage the "agenda-setting" of big business, then our culture has failed already. However, parks like the Lake District, Lomond and the Trossach, Cairngorm, Derbyshire Peak District, etc, etc, etc are very popular and so are outdoor pursuits of all kinds. There are also many other interesting cultural activities that many people take part in. I do not despair of civilisation yet.

I think that the only thing that distinguishes my view from that expressed by you and alea on this thread is that I accept that people are all different and it's not for me to judge what people do in their leisure time. I suppose I do judge in that I choose differently from what you have described, as do most of the people I know, but my judgment stops there. I shrug and expect a full range of human choices from what is available.

thatbags You talk about "freedom of choice" but in fact it is big business that is setting the agenda. Consumers are encouraged to see shopping as an exciting and fulfilling activity and, as alea said, this starts at a young age when children become accustomed to family leisure time commonly revolving around shopping malls.

I'm not averse to a bit of shopping myself but I honestly think that a culture that elevates shopping to some sort of art form will become increasingly vacuous and sterile.

No ffinnocchio by the time you have queued at the M&S check out, again at MacD's and got out of the Brent Cross car park the best of the wind is gone so you would have to come back tomorrow and that's when you had planned to hit B&Q !

Alea I am nit-picking somewhat, yet going to M&S followed by a McDonalds, does not preclude having a fine old time flying a kite on Parliament Hill.
There need not be any dichotomy in any of the activities you mentioned.

A day out consisting of walks and play parks can quite easily be followed by a McDonalds or visit to the Fish & Chip shop. The kids are probably ravenous by then.....

Who mentioned enforcing?

Nobody, thatbags is talking about interfering, but just as I might have an opinion about children's diet (e.g. high sugar, high salt, junk food) or health(obesity in children) I also have an opinion on their physical activity and <whisper> creative/artistic/physical welfare. And I think I am entitled to express it!
We are very hot on child protection and rightly so but many kids do get a raw deal without actual visible deprivation.
I think we are already seeing the the results in the next generation of overweight children whose weekends in the shopping mall or in front of the TV or X box are hardly surprising if their own parents never spent a Saturday or Sunday with them out in a park or on a beach or just bashing a tennis ball against a garage door!

That may not be the norm in your part of the world, but visit Brent Cross, the Gyle, any Arndale centre, Westfield or any out of town shopping centre and look at the young families on a Sunday afternoon

I've often had requests from staff to work Sundays & have an additional day off during the week as it suits them better for childcare, the other parent being available on Sundays.

Do you think the rules on Harris and Lewis, e.g. chaining off children's play parks on Sundays is a good idea? I don't, but that's the kind of thing authoriatrians rules do: they tell people how to behave and enforce their rules even when what people might want to do is harmless.

And, in the case of play parks, fun and educational. Kids learn through play.

Parents are responsible for their own children. While I'm completely in favour of all education, I'm not in favour of interfering with how parents bring up their kids even if I don't think those parents are being educational enough. Any other view seems to me to be authoritarian and unhealthy.

I absolutely agree that leading by good example is the best way forward, but that still doesn't give me, or you, the right to interfere. Where would it stop?
You cannot really understand what freedom means if you honestly advocate enforcing your view of how things should be. It doesn't matter how right you are or how good your ideas are.

So agree with Alea.

Hmm,*thatbags*, don't you ever feel sorry for the little ones? Should parents not be encouraging their children to do more interesting things and leading by example?
Science Museum or Westfield Shopping Centre? Which is going to fire a child's imagination?
M&S followed by McDonalds at Brent Cross or flying a kite on Parliament Hill?

Freedom of choice is one thing but a child has no choice, their decisions are "made" by the adults who have the responsibility for their care.
Children whose imaginations are starved or who never get the chance to run around or play in the open air are likely to grow into adults who follow the same path.

The reasons you give are very good, alea, and I have no problem with them, but I don't think I have any right to decide how other people should spend their leisure hours even if they do so in ways I dislike or disapprove of. That was my point earlier: freedom of choice.

My lovely gym overlooks a park so, as I do the exercise bikes and treadmills I can look across at what's going on. So, apart from the people using the gym or downstairs using the swimming pool there are exercise classes going on plus trampolining/badminton etc. On the park there are children on bikes, dogs being walked; running clubs meet outside as do walking groups. So much for us being a nation of couch potatoes. Give people the facilities and they will use them .

Shopping seems to have become our national leisure activity? Why not?

Reasons. thatbags -how many do you want?
I suppose it depends on how you define "leisure activity" -is it family time, relaxation, time for fitness, time out of doors in the fresh air, time spent enjoying the arts, time with one's peer group?
Whatever, here are my suggested reasons why I see it as a negative, unproductive and ultimately unimaginative use of a day off school or work

Children could learn by example that there are many more creative ways to spend their free time.
There are also more relaxing family activities-feeding ducks in the park, going fishing with Dad, going on an outing to the beach or forest
People rarely look "happy" with buggy, recalcitrant children , sulky teenagers again trailing round shops.
Increased use of cars to get to the aforementioned shops.
How do you learn about nature or the world around you, trailing round shops?
Anybody might benefit from healthier ways of spending an afternoon than trailing round a shopping mall
With increasing levels of obesity, a brisk walk, kick around or bike ride could be a better example to set to children (as well as being better for the grown ups)
We live in an increasingly materialistic society and levels of debt are also increasing -does shopping as a "pastime" not feed this?
Shopping is not what we should be teaching the next generation as the best way to enjoy family or quality time.

Yes. Going to a garden makes a lovely outing on a Sunday afternoon, especially if you have a cup of tea and a piece of cake. It's more a leisure activity than anything commercial. And often the staff are youngsters, glad of a weekend job.

It seemed easier for our family when they were lower down the tree and as Soontobe says, negotiation was possible. Sadly it isn't possible now with management roles. There is a clear requirement, currently only one Sunday a month is allowed not to be worked, Saturdays are mandatory. Can only hope their employer is not representative and there is more equity for the majority. What would we do without hope?

When my family were a bit younger, they negotiated with where they worked.
It was decided that they would be rostered to work every saturday, but not sunday, unless an emergency.

Well said hobbitgran - my personal experience chimes with yours. it seems the more 'touchy feely' the adverts, the harsher the working environment.

I agree totally with what nightowl has said [and I, too am not religious in any way]. I also agree with jingle about garden centres as well. I would imagine that they do most of their trade on Saturdays and Sundays [probably more so on Sundays]. People will often make it a day out of it if they venture forth to a garden centre further away, especially as a lot of them now have tearooms. Their main trade is during the summer/spring months when they have to make as much as they can, and queues can be horrendous at weekends.They also have to compete with places like Homebase/B&Q etc that have much longer opening hours during the week. People also spend more time at them [at least, I do]; not just a case of nipping in to buy a few things but to do a lot of browsing [which obviously tempts me to buy more than I set out to do]. Might ask our local garden centre what their thoughts are on longer Sunday hours.

I wonder if there is an important issue here about the culture in many retail operations. With two close family members in retail management it is clear the reality is often harsh and unyielding pressure - for one 5am to 9pm or later is a regular occurrence. Its hard not to worry about them. Longer opening hours can't, sadly, mean automatic extra staffing hours. As others have wisely pointed out, individuals only have so much money to spend so longer opening hours do not necessarily add to profit for the employer to fund more staff. I try not to shop on a Sunday and indeed have no need to, but can understand the draw for those who have family time at the weekend. To go back to our family, with school age children there will rarely be weekend space together and almost none with wider family - and this now includes Christmas Day To go back to the beginning of this post, for me there is a need for many retail employers to think carefully about their culture and their responsibility for the wellbeing of their staff. Perhaps a good outcome for all would then be possible.

None of the shops on the island I live are open on a Sunday, no one works on a Sunday unless its an emergency, the locals frown about washing being on the line. The isle of Lewis has a Tesco, as far as I know its the only Tesco that closes on a Sunday. On the isle of Harris they put a chain on the gates of the childrens playground to try and ensure even the children observe the Sabbath

Didn't Scrooge buy his Christmas turkey (goose?) on Christmas Day?

"Shopping seems to have become our national leisure activity".

Well, why shouldn't it, if that's what people want to do?

I am not fond of shopping but I know people who love it and spend a good deal of time doing it with friends and/or family.