Longer opening hours on Sunday

I think the implication that Americans and people who don't object to longer Sunday opening hours (even though they don't particularly want them either) don't value their families in exactly the same way as the objecters, is proper daft.

Did I say that? No, of course not- but 'society' can choose to support families and allow them garanteed together time to bond - or not. As said, those working hours are mostly IMPOSED on families by the shops and of course, the shoppers- especially on those at the lower end of the scale- meaning mum and dad take it in turn to look after kids and rarely have time together. The stress on those families with late night shopping on Xmas Eve and very early again on Boxing Day, for instance, must be huge- and prevent families from enjoying that special time- as an extreme example.

You obviously will not be convinced- so will leave it at that. As said, whether you believe me or not- other European countries have not gone to Sunday and 24/7 shopping, for that very reason- supporting families. I like that very much- you don't. I will fight tooth and nail here to prevent the imposition of Sunday and night working hours for as long as I can, having seen the effect in the UK.

Sorry gj but you said:
"Same in most European countries who value the family - the UK is very much on its own on this, following American patterns rather than European ones."
You said that European countries (societies) value the family, and that the U.S. and UK were different from Europe - it is perfectly reasonable to infer from your words that you think the Americans don't value the family.

I was talking about society at large, as a whole, not as individuals- and I'll stand by that statement. Society can choose to protect the family or not- same for excellent education and health for all- rather than 2, 3 and more tier systems which create division and all sorts of societal problems linked to social division. Look for instance at Northern European countries.

If you look at France and Italy for instance, and here where I live- the family is not solely the nuclear family, but really does have the extended family tradition- and Sunday activities shared with several generations of family and friends- be it sport, nature or family meals, etc- which sadly is no longer prevalent to the same extent in the UK (exceptions exist of course)- and which are 'threatened' by imposed long unsociable hours- as said, often on the less well-off families who have little choice.

As a doctor, you are probably well aware of the toll long unsociable hours can have on a family. As said, OH worked 135+ hours when we were first married, and about 90 hours, 1 night in 3 and 1 week-end in 3, later 4- when our children were young. Very hard on all of us- but in his job we knew that was essential. I was totally unable to have any job of my own until the advent of the reliable mobile phone- tied to the phone night and day when he was on call.

I'm not a doctor gj.
I do think respect for the family, and family values, is a large part of American culture and values, actually.
Although Sunday trading can make life less pleasant, and even very difficult, for those who have to work when they would rather spend time with their families, it doesn't follow that the family as an institution is necessarily weakened.

that's OK thatbags- I did try to explain I was not talking about individuals, but about society as a whole- making choices that support families or not. I think it would be hard not to agree that excessive consumerism is not something which is more strongly linked to the USA (with the knock on effect) than, say, France or Italy or Skandinavian countries. Would you not agree there? The UK has increasingly moved towards more USA style shopping habits- something which is strongly resisted in other part of Europe- as said, to protect individuals but also families, including exgtended families and traditions linked to such, and as such 'society'.

Whether you believe me, or agree with me, is neither here nor there, and totally your choice.

1 question, multiple choice answers:

If you hear the words 'excessive consumerism'
which of the following countries first spring to mind

a) Italy

b) the USA

c) France

next question, and vastly more complex

'why'?

You're not in school now, Granjura.

I agree with granjura. I don't think "the family" or community life in general is seen as a priority in this country or the USA. I think we very much follow the American model in prioritising the economic environment above all else, although fortunately we are not quite as obsessed with economic output as the USA where I believe an annual leave allowance of two weeks is considered adequate and where most workers are reported as not taking a proper lunch break and more likely to eat at their desks.

We have friends (now in their early 80's) who own a second home in France and have done so for over twenty years. They say that their experience is that in France social occasions have a much more inter-generational feel about them. That is not to say that France is perfect by any means. The popularity of the National Front demonstrates another side of the story.

I don't think the family is valued enough in this country. Many children are bundled off to nursery at a very early age and the idea of a parent staying at home to look after young children is seen as slightly eccentric. If childcare facilities were of the highest standard (as in Scandinavian countries) there may well be an argument that it is beneficial to young children - socially, intellectually and emotionally - to attend nursery at an early age. However, I believe a fairly recent Ofsted report expressed concern at the number of nurseries that were only achieving "satisfactory" or "unsatisfactory" grades.

That is not to say that parents don't care about their families. Many of them would love to spend more time with their children and the wider family but family life appears not to be the priority for this or, to some extent, previous governments. With our excessive housing costs, many families have no option but for both parents to work, and I believe there is also an underlying message that it is not desirable for either parent to stay at home for more than a year or so after the birth of a child.

I guess my relatives and friends and acquaintances in America are unusual then. Funny that.

If you say excessive consumerism to me, I don't think of any of those countries that you offer as options, nor indeed of any countries at all. I think of the excessive consumerism of some human beings all over the world.

Doing some shopping on a Sunday is not necessarily excessive consumerism. It could just be a good day to shop because of one's other commitments, lifestyle and, as I said earlier, distance from the shops. Actually, apart from buying milk from the village shop, most weeks it's the only shopping I do. And that's groceries. Very family unfriendly.

And my remaining at home DD does it with me. It's part of her education.

gj , have always thought b. "Why?" would take too long to answer.
Italians, whose lifestyle I am more familiar with, spend a lot of time with their family, both younger and older generations. Children tend to live at home until they marry, this for cultural,as opposed to financial reasons. Any birthday, baptism, or other celebration includes the wider family. Being more gregarious by nature probably explains this but certainly family life and its importance is paramount as it probably is in countries I know less well.

Jane- I am perfectly aware of that, thanks

Eloethan, I am so glad someone sees and understands what I am trying to say, thanks. Yes, go to a wedding in France or Italy, and see how inter-generational they are- kids dancing with grandma and music chosen for all- lovely. Same here.

thatbags- I've been thinking of my own question and the answer to 'why' is very complex. However, I think it is a sign of a very divided society- where different social 'classes', groups, ethnic groups, are kep quite separate and living very different lives- and were the individuals and families on whom those unsocial working hours are not at all the same as those who have the freedom not to do so, perhaps - and rarely meet apart from at the cash till, the counter or when visiting the loo. Compared to Scandinavian countries, where private schooling is non-existent for the great majority, as here (apart from Geneva and Zurich)- people of different groups grow up together, are educated together and belong to the same clubs together- and the impact of unsocial working practices, be they 0 hour contracts (which are totally illegal in most or all of the rest of Europe) and 27/7 shopping, are discussed and shared- with more empathy for those on whom they would be imposed. Perhaps? Very complex indeed- but I think this is what it boils down too. The American family is very much nuclear these days- whereas in central Europe the extended family still plays a large part.

bellanonna, thanks for your contribution. I agree- posts crossed.

Well GJ on Saturday night we went out for dinner with DGD, DGS, DS, DDiL, and DDiL's parents.

It is only the fact that we normally live in the UK that this isn't a more frequent occurence. We were not the only extended family in the restaurant by any means.

When DS and DiL got married, as well as numerous relatives on her side, my sister, brother-in law, two nephews, my Sister-in-law, her then husband and son, and 2 first cousins once removed all flew out to the States to be there with us. Other older relatives would have but for illness and infirmity.

I don't think sweeping generalisations, deploring the attitude and values of an entire, very large, country are helpful.

The "great majority" of British kids go to school together and mix socially too, gj. Like janea, I think you are making unwarranted sweeping generalisations about how other people live.

Having lived in several locations in the UK, and taught for 25 years in a variety of schools there (all State schools) I beg to differ, having witnessed the scramble for 'better' schools, the lies and fraud even (prententing to be CofE, buying properties in better catchment area and not living there, and more). At the last school where I taught, in a small town, the school population was split into 3- with hardly any contact (bar the odd fight) between them - 1 private Grammar school, 1 Catholic and 1 'so-called' Comprehensive.

If you live in a very rural area- it might be a bit different. But even in rural areas where I lived, many kids were taken to all sorts of private schools- despite the fact we lived in an affluent area with excellent state schools. None of that here, or where I grew up- I am glad to say.

gj My experience of American families are quite contrary to your view that The American family is very much nuclear these days.

As for excessive consumerism - the UK doesn't seem to do too badly on that front.

Personally I would prefer shops not to be open on a Sunday. We would all get used to it and adjust accordingly. Fridges /freezers make shopping in larger quantities easier. Home delivery (quite eco-friendly if one vehicle carries shopping for several homes) can help those living in more remote areas.

I fully understand the convenience of being able to pop to the shops as a and when 24/7 but I think it is unnecessary and in my mind 'normalises' consumerism and promotes the insidious culture of continuous work. I think extending trading hours further may undermine smaller businesses and shops and may force family businesses to open when they do not want to. Sunday shopping has been a feature for many years so is not a new idea I agree thatbags. I aim to avoid it and did so even when working 11 - 15 hour days 5 days a week with two kids at home.

I agree that part of my opinions are inconsistent because I think it is good that places where people can go for entertainment (cinema/ restaurants/leisure centres etc etc) are open but would strongly support a 6 day opening week for them too so that employees could have two days without having to work. I would also always support good pay and conditions so all workers are not pressured to work at weekends/ unsocial hours unless that is what they truly 'chose' to do.

Most shops, restaurants, garden centres, cinemas, pubs and cafés, are not open 24/7..........even in America.

~feeling picky this morning~

Don't blame yer! Why not?

The way I see it is, each to their own. If the shops all open 24/7 it doesn't mean we have to shop does it? Personally I am in the "for" camp as I do sometimes have no alternative but to shop on a Sunday. Not every Sunday mind you, but sometimes. It's not really much different to pub opening times is it? Just because many pubs open all day doesn't mean we have all taken to sitting drinking in them all day does it? There are some people who see shopping as entertainment. There are some who browse the shops just for somewhere to go. I can't see the problem.

Well! Just catching up on this thread and so relieved to see janeainsworth's comments in response to the suggestion that we Brits are always out shopping and that our celebrations (weddings for example) don't feature different generations dancing together. Phew! Do I live in a different country I wonder. It seems whenever we pop out for a pizza to the Italian up the road, or call in at one of the local pubs we bump into other groups of extended families, 3 or 4 generations enjoying time together.

I dislike sweeping generalisations, especially when they diss my much loved and certainly imperfect homeland.

I remain in the camp that would prefer us to have a day a week, or even half a day when the shops were closed. I accept that isn't going to happen and I don't feel we're going to hell in a handcart.

Of course sweeping generalisations are wrong, but trends can still be picked up. Perhaps go to an Italian or French wedding, and see fr yourself- the atmosphere is (generally) very different- and I've been to very many English ones too in my 39 years there. Never been to one where the music was chosen to include traditional music and songs that would appeal to all- with traditional dances- apart from one in Scotland.
GRans who live abroad may confirm this- and it is something expats often comment about, not just me.

Gillybob- of course people can choose not to shop on Sundays or middle of the night- the point however is about the workers NOT having the choice to work those hours or not - and needing protection against this- as if they refuse they lose their jobs. Unions in the rest of Europe are much stronger on workers' rights, and I am glad for it. It would be interesting to hear from any GNeter who have worked on Sundays and night-shifts or their close relatives. If it is a true choice, I have no objections- but in most supermarkets it is NO longer a choice and enforced, and people lose their jobs if they refuse.

I only three times went to shop at night- on way back from a long trip, and was amazed to see so many families there with toddlers and young school aged children- in the middle of term! And how many of us have seen kids being dragged around the shops screaming on Sundays- and wishing they could be at the park or having fun outside instead. Again, I love the UK, loved my years there, love to be back- but it does not stop me from seeing that some things are different for the better, and some very much for the worse- and I am very glad we do not have Sunday and night shopping in the rest of Europe- and long may it last. You disagree- and that is fine.