The Left's way forward

Even more . Think I need to lie down.

What a shambles.

Jeremy Corbyn voted against the government reform bill, along with another 48 labour MPs.

Andy Burnham's decision on the welfare bill, which is being voted on right now.

"He is voting against the bill, because he is backing the Labour amendment that says the bill should not get a second reading. (See 5.40pm.) But he is also abstaining when MPs vote on whether to give the bill a second reading, in line with the instructions from the Labour whip."

Can you make head or tail of it?

Yes that's a principled stand indeed. I think being principled and having principles can mean different things.

now.

Okay, I believe you, nightowl. You just had me worried for a minute there.

How about this for a principled stand?

www.theguardian.com/law/2015/jul/19/south-african-anti-apartheid-heroes-urge-david-cameron-not-to-repeal-human-rights-act

Be interesting to see Cameron's response.

Or, from the Conservative Party's own website, these are their founding principles:

Conservative Party, byname Tories, in the United Kingdom, a political party whose guiding principles include the promotion of private property and enterprise, the maintenance of a strong military, and the preservation of traditional cultural values and institutions.

I think the term 'principle' doesn't necessarily imply a positive value, although it is often used that way.

Principle (usually principles) A rule or belief governing one’s behaviour (OED)

I think they are what TriciaF said above durhamjen - 'preserving wealth and power in the hands of the small proportion of the already wealthy'. I didn't say they were principles I admire, just that they have them and they don't ever waver from them. And I have a grudging admiration for the Conservative party for that, and for the way they have managed to convince the not-so-wealthy that austerity is good for them.

Nightowl, what are these principles that the Tories have?
They said in their manifesto that they would reduce the benefit cap to £23000. They will reduce it to £23000 in London, but £20000 in the rest of England. That was not very principled.
There is no principle involved in reducing the number of those in poverty by getting rid of the meaning of poverty.

Anyone watching the welfare reform and work bill? It's the one where the Tory principle is to get rid of child poverty by getting rid of the child poverty act. Poverty will no longer mean having little money from now on if this goes through.
The meaning of poverty will be having no work, not being low paid.

Jeremy Corbyn has principles.
The bill will abolish the government's need to collect poverty statistics.

No.

Only when Hell freezes over.

Can I ask, in all of this, do posters think that Labour are going to get many seats back again from the SNP?

Yes, they certainly could. Any government needs a strong opposition to function really well, and Labour is just not fulfilling this role. they must get their act together soon.

I totally agree with you roses, and I was speaking generally, not trying to suggest that we have a dictatorship in this country. I agree as well that the Conservatives have principles, hence my later post saying everyone knows what they stand for. I may not agree with them, but I have to admit it's one of the party's strengths that they are clear in their aims and policies. That's where I think the Labour Party could learn something from them.

Night owl, I would agree that power without principles would be bad, but we do not have a dictatorship, the Conservatives were voted in by the electorate.They do have principles, just different ones to Socialists.
The problem with a lot , or even most Lib Dem supporters is that they wanted principles ( their own) with no compromises, not possible!
now some Labour supporters are threatening to take the Labour Party the same way, down the drain.

That's my attitude too nightowl.
The Tories - "it's always been clear what they stand for" - going back even to the mid 19C. The preservation of wealth and power in the hands of the small proportion of already-wealthy. The LibDems tried to put the brakes on for a few years, but now they're free to revert to type.
It used to be clear what Labour stood for, why are they so scared to propagate it now?
Thinking about it more, the first thing a Labour govt. would need to do is to dismantle all the recent legislation which is systematically consolidating wealth in the hands of the rich, at the expense of the poor. Then set up a more equitable balance of taxation etc to fund social improvements.

Agreed, nightowl, and you are not alone.

I think the Labour Party needs to be very careful. They may gain some voters by abandoning their founding principles, but they will alienate many more. Say what you like about the Conservatives, but it's always been clear what they stand for and it's a case of take it or leave it. No one likes a party that wavers all over the place.

I only felt I could vote for Labour with Ed at the helm. Whether I continue to support them depends on who they now elect as leader. Anyone associated with Tony Blair is a complete turn off and I'm back to the wilderness where I languished between 1997 and 2015. I don't think I was alone there. I really don't think I'm extreme in my views, I'm just a socialist who wants a fairer society 'cradle to grave'.

Tegan, less than 1% of welfare claimants make false claims. If anyone was going to sort out the top tax problems that 1% would not matter anything like as much.

The Libdems now have a left wing leader which is good. Now we need one in the Labour party.
The reason Cameron has given Cornwall the right to look after its own affairs is because the people changed from Libdem to Tory at the last election. It's a reward, or bribe if you like.

Oh I am I only saw Jeremy Corbyn for the first time on the telly yesterday morning and most of what I know is either from reading it on here or hearing it from the S.O. who puts me to shame by reading the paper every day . He voted Liberal in the election because he kept saying how Nick Clegg had restrained the Conservatives for so long and that Clegg had been interviewed on the telly and said how the Conservatives had targetted the Liberal seats at the last election. My fear of UKIP almost made me vote Conservative at one point. There is also very good political debate on one of my racing forums at the moment as well. What worries me greatly is the fact that, with the growing threat from IS we, as a country, are fragmenting and fighting from within .

You don't seem very out of touch to me tegan

Ed was a major contribution to Labour being defeated; even I found it hard to vote for him and I know other people who felt the same way. We no longer vote just for someone who will be leader of this country but, as I've said before someone who represents us on the world stage and, for that reason needs to have the right image. When we think of Germany do we not automatically think of Angela Merkell? What we do need at this moment in time is a strong opposition party, to carry on doing what Nick Clegg has been doing for the past few years; reining in the sort of Conservative policies that are going to shock people over the next few years. Jeremy Corbyn is not [imo] that person. You only have to read comments on gransnet to realise that people are as much afeared of left wing policies as they are of right. I'm saying that as someone who very much believes in socialist principles, but it's no good having principles if no one votes for you . For all the tax dodgers at the top end of the pay scale there are also people at the bottom who abuse a welfare state, and that has to be sorted out in some way. Now that Labour seem to have lost any chance of getting MP's in Scotland they are in a very precarious position; I would imagine that most floating voters are in the middle classes who tend to bear the brunt of paying for most things. The key to everything [again imo] is education, plus providing work for those who are not academic [because of the decimation of our manufacturing industry]. We came very close to losing the last train makers in this country a few years ago, and it was a Labour party mistake initially that nearly brought it about; even so it was people marching on the streets that saved it. Believe me my heart will always be with the Labour party and it's principles, and I, too, loathe the 'I'm all right jack' society that we now live in . Must also point out that I'm very much out of touch politically and really value the time and effort that people on gransnet put into informing people of what's going on.

But roses if principles without power brings nothing (which I agree with btw) what does power without principles bring? Dictatorship and tyranny usually. The art is to convince the electorate that principles matter, rather than this 'I'm all right jack' society that we seem to have built.

I am not sure that I agree that Labour supporters blame the voters for voting for the Tory party rose quite the reverse I would say. There is a lot of introspection going on
. I think the idea of blaming the voters is media talk.

Saying all that undoubtedly there will be some time before the left gets back on its feet with little sign of it yet, which quite honestly I think has been continuing for the past 5 years.