If Greece does exit....

But the whole point is is that they will never be able to pay it back, so whatever anyone thinks about the situation and whether the Greeks should pay it back is immaterial - they won't so the EU needs to man up and face reality.

All countries have debts. Greece can live with theirs, whether they ever pay it all back or not.

petra that is being drippy. They are no more "the underdog" than any other EU country.

According to the Independent a few days ago, Greece could sue Goldman Sachs to recover some of the squillions it paid to them for securing their place in the single currency.

And where did those squillions come from, I wonder...

TerriBull. Brilliant news. We have been talking about this for eons.
We were visiting friends (on Rhodes) when Greece went into the EU and when they went into Euro. It was obvious that the ordinary folk had no idea what was happening. Sad to say that they found out when prices went sky high.

Exports of Feta cheese maybe That's to Ana

Why they were lent so much in the first place when there was obviously not a monkey's chance of them ever paying any of it back beats me. A bit like those 110% mortgages that were being given out to folk around the same time. I believe some of the debt is being wiped - but not enough. The lenders should take some responsibility for their own stupidity.

And they are still being lent it.

You would have thought, in this day and age, that the world would have thought out a strategy for this sort of thing. It is hardly new.

Some people do not live with their debt. They can die, either directly or indirectly because of it.

Four years ago Nigel Farage opposed the second basil-out for Greece, saying it was 'pouring good money after bad'. Hate to say it but he was right.

jingle If the situation were reversed and you and other British people were experiencing 40% cuts in their pensions and were in danger of being evicted because they couldn't afford to pay their rent, or were suffering from cancer but were having difficulty getting the appropriate treatment, would you call other Europeans "drippy" for being outraged on our behalf?

As I quoted on another thread:

"The troika believed that its reform recipe – spending cuts, tax increases, labour market liberalisation – would restore the Greek economy to growth and help make its debts sustainable.

"Instead, the country has been plunged into five years of recession, and its debt-to-GDP ratio has continued to rise, from 120% of GDP, to 175%."

As it has already been proved that the draconian austerity measures have actually damaged the economy even further, what is the point of pursuing them? Or is there a different agenda - to make an "example" of Greece and to allow more powerful European countries to consolidate that power by buying up large chunks of Greece's state-owned assets?

The IMF is of the opinion that Greece will need debt relief otherwise the repayments for the new bail out will be unsustainable. To those that say what went before is irrelevant, on the contrary I think lessons should be learnt from history. Some countries in Latin America have been in Greece's situation and they too were unable to repay debts so in the end defaulted and in the end those debts had to be written off. In particular, Mexico was in dire straights a few decades back, but I believe their economy has now recovered somewhat. Greece's economy has been grossly mismanaged but that was overlooked when they were allowed to join the single market politicians from the countries that now want to bring Greece to it's knees, colluded to allow them into the euro in the first place when they clearly weren't ready.

I think Bez made the point in other thread that Germany had debts written off 4 times in the last century and for far more reprehensible reasons than those of the fecklessness of politicians and financial incompetence.

I agree with Eloethan's last paragraph, particularly "more powerful European countries buying up large chunks of Greece's state owned assets" As the Telegraph said yesterday just smacks of neo colonialism.

The bottom line for me is that fiscal union does not suit such diverse economies as Greece and Germany and weaker nations are just going to surrender their sovereignty, but I guess that's all part of the master plan. Thank god we are not in the euro.

I agree Terribull. You would think that Germany, having suffered draconian measures taken against them after WWI but also having benefited from assistance following WWII, would take a more thoughtful and less self-righteous approach.

If the assistance given to Germany following WWII was thought to be both morally and practically acceptable, even though the country in question had started a war and murdered millions of people, why are the Greeks being so harshly treated?

I am beginning to wonder whether the voter who is watching the way the EU is behaving I.e. forcing draconian deals on a country for which the population rejected in a democratic vote, may well reject the EU when we come to our referendum. I think it is a distinct danger. I for one whilst supporting the ideals of the EU have always worried about the democratic gap, and think this is yet another example.

No Eleothan, I probably wouldn't call them "drippy".

But I can recognise a 'last chance saloon' when I see one.

I think it was obvious when Syriza was elected as the government of Greece they were never going to be able to deliver the anti austerity package they had promised to their electorate, most grandiose socialist plans can't be implemented when faced with the harsh economic realities, otherwise ruin inevitably ensues, so these idealistic proposals are kicked into the long grass. I think the prevarications of Tsipris and his former finance minister Varoufakis haven't helped one iota. Nevertheless, when it becomes patently obvious that a debt cannot be repaid, I think for the greater good, some of it needs to be written off, it's happened before for heaven's sake and the world still continued to turn on it's axis. Greece needs a "Begin Again" strategy where all the necessary measures are put in place and all the old nonsense they indulged in well and truly kicked out. I suppose the economically prudent countries are worried about the floodgates being opened and Spain, Italy etc. will want the same, but as they aren't as far down the ruinous road, I think it could be pointed out that if Greece isn't helped in this way they will surely default and then the whole of the EU will be losers.

What I can't understand is why anyone in their right mind thinks that this is a club worth staying in. A trading union absolutely. Fiscal and political union - just a nightmare, an unwieldy body of so many nations all with different characters and attitudes. It's like being in a class with a range of very mixed abilities, each individual knowing that they will never be good enough to hold their own against the smug class swot and he/she being the only one that really matters!

whitewave. Quite.
The EU looks anything but "cosy" and full of "togetherness".

As I sort of asked or hinted at, I cant get why Germany is in charge.
They are not doing their image any favours at all.
Plus it is again, another example of "non-togetherness".

Soontobe. If you had put more money in 'The Pot' than anyone else, wouldn't you want the biggest say in things? It's human nature.

Quoting soon "They are not doing their image any favours at all."

I think they are. Excellent money management.

Andrew Neil on BBC2 today said that Britain would have to fork out 15% of the money to bail out Greece. Some had thought it would just be the Eurozone, but no, it's the EU.
That won't go down very well.

Not that good jing they were complicity in allowing Greece into the euro even though it was obvious that they nowhere remote!y met the criteria.

Complicite

Give up this b.....y machine!!

On a minor note I was glad to see that they have now accepted that its not OK for hairdressers and TV announcers to retire at 50. Hairdressers were retiring early due to their exposure to chemicals and TV announcers for their use of germ laden microphones. You couldn't make it up. Tiny examples I know but illustrative of a very different approach to life than our own. One of the main sticking points to agreement was regarding pensions and retirement ages.

Do they still have the system where a single woman could inherit her dead Fathers pension ?