VJ day

This is probably going to sound Gladstone-ish or preachy; I apologise. It's such an emotional subject I feel I've got to just dive in quickly. Sorry everyone.

A) No one asked anyone to wave a flag. A mature, reasoned discussion is what the original post seemed to be asking for. That's generally better and more interesting than stating one's righteousness.

B) Does anyone really believe that if (very hypothetical if I know) those weapons had been in the hands of the Japanese they would not have used them against their enemies?

I realize that doesn't answer the question. But food for thought perhaps?

All of us, including those on such high moral ground the oxygen must be a bit thin, are fortunate beyond belief that we're able to sit around and talk about this. Stating the obvious, I know, and I really am sorry.

It's so easy (I'm guilty of it) to let the comfort and security of today cushion us too much from reality past and present. We owe the people who made our lives possible many things: mainly, respect. Not just for veterans or those currently serving, but also for each other. It is possible to state your thoughts and feelings firmly without belittling people. A sound argument doesn't need to twist others' words.

I don't believe anyone on this thread is a vengeful, war-happy simpleton. I think any of us, given the choice, would prefer that children could live rather than die. This is a subject that involves real people with real memories, real feelings, real families, deserving of real respect. We need to be able to discuss it. I simply can't see the need for the implied tone of voice in so many of the posts about the fact that civilians and children were horrifically killed. We know. But those of us writing did not drop the bombs.

Oh help, this is Gladstone-ish and preachy. But I can't help thinking about what so many people went through and it's depressing to imagine it was for this.

For very free discussion, yes. To imply that someone's thoughts or feelings are heartless or connected to revenge? When the people who have expressed those opinions have done so in a very intelligent and reasonable way? It's funny that the very people who decry the bombings the most stridently have chosen such a dictatorial tone.

'We're all in it together ...' Aren't we? I thought we were. Life.

Please forgive me. I should've kept Mum.

This may seem off topic, though imo it's off-topically-connected: I'm terrified by the enforced redundancy of so many Gurkhas. Especially as IS grow more dangerous by the minute. It's like throwing lifeboats off the Titanic. To end on an unhappy note.

Or rather, not to. To - hopefully - make sure the sufferings of everyone involved in the War weren't in vain. That their children, grandchildren, and greats have a safe and decent world to live in. And that it doesn't happen again. We can go beyond pettiness. We really have to. Cheers everyone.

Annie it will be interesting if anybody else took you to be referring to anything else than the dropping of the bomb!!! I certainly did not - it certainly was not revenge on my part to try and put a point over as to why the bomb was dropped. Everyone is entitled to their opinion for whatever reason - it is not even a question of being required to condemn or not the killing of people - the Japanese were just as guilty of killing thousands within a very short time span so neither side came out too well - however as it happens neither the UK nor the USA actually started that particular war - but defended themselves and others who were in no position to defend themselves. To just keep repeating that it should not have been dropped and the word revenge does not really add to the argument or clarity of what you mean.

Ah - I understand your point.

Sarah, I didn't mean the dropping of the bomb was revenge, I was referring to the posts which seemed to put forward the ill treatment of prisoners as a reason for not condemning the killing of thousands in two days, this to me does seem like revenge

Actually I did capitals on purpose because niggly kept repeating that the Japanese had not apologised, and they had. I intended to shout, jingl. At least she acknowledged what I had said, having ignored it twice before.

I am not sure if dropping the bombs was the right decision but I do not believe revenge was the motive. It was to bring a swift end to the war. The Japanese would not have capitulated otherwise. In saipan the japanese committed mass suicide rather than lose. I am no historian but in Okinawa I am sure there was compulsory mass suicide rather than surrender.

Like other posters my dear father would have died a horrific death in his twenties had the bombs not have been dropped. It is an emotional subject for many with no easy answers. It has been of great interest to me to read other opinions on this subject.

Well, you must think what you want to think, as we're all entitled to do. I can't be bothered to discuss this anymore, so am also signing off.

When one reads - the Japanese did this atrocity and that atrocity as a defence for dropping nuclear warefare on thousands of innocent people then to me it reads - revenge .

Signing off. Too much sensitivity.

Oh FGS , give up this rubbish that words in capitals have to be seen as shouting. I repeat, we are not little teens on their social media.

But not taught in schools and not acknowledged like It has been in Germany. Incidentally there is no need to shout at me!

Just desserts - Revenge???!!! Where did that come from?
Certainly not implied in my post. This event will always be in History and always be the subject of debate and divided opinion.

THEY HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED IT AND APOLOGISED, NIGGLY.

Annie it was your use of the word revenge which I objected to - as others besides myself have said - what the Japanese had done to the prisoners was not known at the time they dropped the bomb. I don't suppose the japanese soldiers regretted bombing ships and cities either - although many of their pilots were deliberately killed as they were suicide bombers. It was war and many awful things were done to many people innocent and some not so. - it is why we must work towards not becoming involved in another one.

Exactly rose, the account of this atrocity is quite, quite terrible. These people were murdered atrociously, the streets ran with blood. Apparently there were about 20 American and some other Europeans the city at the time who desperately tried to create a 2 square mile safety zone for the Chinese to try to protect them. Their bravery has been forgotten long ago, but they did succeed in a minor way, hiding children, protecting a kindergarten, confronting the Japanese when they were raping and slitting open pregnant women, while desperately trying to contact outside help. Like the concentration camps, the outside world simply refused to believe these dreadful accounts and concluded that these reports were exaggerated - They weren't, as we now all know. It's a pity that this cannot be acknowledged and faced by present day Japan as in Germany.

Bez, those who dropped the bomb never regretted doing so and they certaintly saw the horrors they inflicted on thousands in two days plus the slow deaths of thousands more

"Murayama expressed a “heartfelt apology” for Japan’s conduct on the Asian mainland in the first half of the last century, which included invasions of parts of eastern China and colonial rule over the Korean peninsula.

Japan, “through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations,” Murayama said. Junichiro Koizumi repeated the statement 10 years later.

Public broadcaster NHK said Abe’s draft statement included the words “apology” and “aggression,” in an apparent attempt to deflect criticism from South Korea and China."

This obviously will not satisfy you, niggly.

As an aside to all this, in Nanking in China, the Japanese soldiers tortured, killed and mutilated their way around the city, in less than a week they had murdered just under 300,000 people, civilians, women, men children babies.
The Japanese cannot portray themselves as victims.They started that war.

It is more usual in wartime to protect and help your own side than that of the enemy, but to suggest that this bomb was dropped for revenge is completely unsubstantiated, and quite frankly silly, particularly, as with the concentration camps in Europe, the savage treatment of POW's wasn't known until the camps were liberated after the Japanese surrendered which was after the bomb had been dropped. As most of us acknowledge, the bomb was dropped to bring a swift end to this appalling war perpetrated by a fanatical enemy who would never surrender until every last one of them were dead. Nothing to do with revenge over POW's!

I do not think it can be called revenge as we did not know the full extent of the horrors till the prisoners were found and released - it would be revenge if it was done months or years after the war had finished - it was done to finish the war.

Amen to that! While I have no issue with the descendants of the perpetrators of WW2 on any front, as no one can possibly be held responsible for the actions of their forebears, but forgiving those forebears? I'm not so sure about that. Such shocking on going cruelty as a government policy year in and year out, and particularly the long term inability to acknowledge that cruelty! I'm sorry but Im afraid I have a problem with that.

If the dropping of the bomb is seen as their just deserts for the ill treatment of prisoners it's revenge

Not expressing an opinion here, just food for thought. My brother was stationed in Burma during the War and from when he came home to the end of his life, he loathed the Japanese and was determined that nothing Japanese went into his home. He spoke only with our Dad of what he saw and knew but these conversations were between only the two of them. I have read several books by former prisoners of the Japanese and the torture to which they were subjected was beyond sadistic. Was the Bomb the right solution ? I didn't know.

I think that we need to glad that whatever actions were taken on behalf of the population alive at the time (which includes me) brought an end to the dreadful war and killings - the people who were doing the torturing and keeping the prisoners in dreadful conditions with little food etc were doing it on a personal level - by that I mean that they could see what was happening and continued to do it - whoever it was - some races are much crueller than others as history has shown. Those who dropped the bombs were probably traumatised when they saw the results of their actions but they could do nothing to redress the situation. Those in charge of the camps could see on a daily basis the results of their actions and did nothing to redress the situation. Anyone who is killed or injured by a bomb is in a way innocent unless it is on a military base - many of the prisoners were totally innocent too.
We just have to hope that nothing like this happens again - and that no country finds themselves ruled by a power mad megalomaniac who will do anything to dominate other countries and races

It's not ours to forgive those who did this.