Young Britons could lose the right to claim some benefits for four years

she was unable to claim anything for 6 months when she returned to UK

I have not heard of this Pippa000 but if that applies to everyone coming back to the UK - did they say how long you had to have lived abroad before it kicked in? - it would surely already apply to anyone coming from the EU ... or not.

Does anyone know?

GG we don't all need you to 'kindly explain' things to us, we may simply disagree with your viewpoint.

Nonnie, your posts are spot on! Well said.

Simply read what I say and don't 'interpret' it please? Or you could say "read what I say but do not try and understand what I mean^. That would make the whole discussion a little pointless. What people write does not always mean we can understand straight away what they mean - if only. This is particularly true online where there is no facial expression or body language to help.

Your main question was about the differences in the Scottish and English grants systems. Do you now understand that these differences between the UK countries is because of devolution and does not stand up as an argument for differentiating what is available to UK citizens and for those coming from the EU?

And can we now get back to the subject or start a new one about grants, etc.

durham if that was addressed to me I don't think that 'interpreting' my post to suit a personal agenda has anything to do with keeping it on track! Please explain as I am a simple soul who only reads what is written.

But Gracesgran started the discussion. She is just trying to keep it on track, I think, as she has the right to do.

No Grace no points missed and the patronisation ignored!

Yes, I do mean just like the serfs and slaves, that was my point but it would appear your preconceptions got in the way of your understanding.

"^The only difference now is that some have been brought up in families where no one has ever worked so the ethos is different. The percentages for families such as these is very low and often in areas where employment has been decimated. I do not expect you to believe that however. I don't think anything anyone said would change the mind of most of those who have been brainwashed to believe this.^" Wow, you know what I think, how very clever! This is just the point I was making that some posters think they know what politicians think and it now seems they also know what I think! Did I say anything about how many? Did I say anything about the reason? No, I didn't and your jumping upon just about everything I said seems to me to prove all my points. Simply read what I say and don't 'interpret' it please?

" I would also say that there is sometimes the odd person who just seems to want to destroy the discussion rather than add anything to it.^ I think you have made your own case for this, it feels like that is just what you are doing in your response to me.

Nonnie: Why are so many so extreme? ... I don't think people are being extreme and often, when people complain of this, it is just because they do not agree with what is being said. Some people from both the left and the right would man the barricades for what they believe is right for all but most are trying to discuss the OP. I would also say that there is sometimes the odd person who just seems to want to destroy the discussion rather than add anything to it.

I too don't understand how the English have to pay for Scottish universities but the rest of the EU doesn't. Surely we can use the same model for some things here? We could, but we have democratically decided not to. You seem to have missed the point that it is the UK that is the member of the EU not the devolved countries. The devolution we have all agreed to means each area of the UK gives it students the same deal as if they stayed in their home area. The EU student coming from outside the UK will get the same as the Scottish student if that is where they are going, or the Welsh student in Wales or the English student in England. Why would they get the same as the English student if they were studying in Scotland? Understanding the devolved areas of one country that is a member of the EU is the answer to your question. This may, and certainly could, happen in other EU countries too.

Someone has brought up the old thing about giving all students grants like they had in their youth but how would we pay for it? Whichever way we do it, it costs a huge amount. Just because we say the students get "loans" does not mean they are all being repaid, the amount outstanding is far larger than the Conservatives ever expected. This is not a thread about funding University places however, some views of this can be done are extremely simplistic and we have to understand the complexity and necessity of higher education for our population.

The only difference now is that some have been brought up in families where no one has ever worked so the ethos is different. The percentages for families such as these is very low and often in areas where employment has been decimated. I do not expect you to believe that however. I don't think anything anyone said would change the mind of most of those who have been brainwashed to believe this.

It is obvious to me that those who feel disadvantaged will make the most fuss. Gosh, you mean just like the serfs rebelled and the slaves in America fought for equal rights. It's such an awful world isn't it.

Haven't read from Bez onwards yet but need to apologise because I think I completely misunderstood you

I am still not sure what you feel we could achieve; we could use different criteria but whatever we use would apply - to look at it the other way round - to our citizens as well as those from the rest of the EU. Have I still got the wrong end of this?

I do feel DC shoots from the hip. Oh look, here's a solution. We will stop the EU immigrants claiming in the first four years. This is a) something they are unlikely to do in that time. They are far more likely to be both paying tax and claiming as they get established and have families and b) he seems to have given no thought to those it will affect in this country who will, generally, be younger and possibly more at risk.

That is not to say we should not look at changes in our own benefit system but we must look at it's unintended consequences surely. For instance if, for some strange reason Scotland thought they should withdraw their payment of tuition fees for students coming from other EU countries they would surely take into account the fact that this would affect the students in Scotland. I think they would take that into account.

Why are so many so extreme? How can anyone know what is in the mind of DC, JC or anyone else? Surely we can all take a more objective view and not get so wound up and make so many assumptions?

I too don't understand how the English have to pay for Scottish universities but the rest of the EU doesn't. Surely we can use the same model for some things here?

Someone has brought up the old thing about giving all students grants like they had in their youth but how would we pay for it? There are so many university students these days that I don't know how we could possibly fund it. When we were young a lot less went to uni. I suspect if we returned to that system the number of places would be drastically reduced.

Another poster said that young people will take any job but I think that has always been the case. The only difference now is that some have been brought up in families where no one has ever worked so the ethos is different.

Zero hours contracts is another red herring as some huge percentage of people want these contracts and I read recently that the average hours worked on them is 35 per week.

on R4 a few days ago I heard that a lot more jobs are now full time rather than part time and that employers are looking after their existing workers rather than taking on more.

It is obvious to me that those who feel disadvantaged will make the most fuss and get the most publicity and so objectivity goes out the window. I am not suggesting they are wrong to do so, just explaining why people get the wrong impressions.

I live part time in Cyprus, an EU member, and you must have paid into the state system for three years before you can get any benefits. My daughter returned from working in Egypt when it became too dangerous and was told that, as she was British, she was unable to claim anything for 6 months when she returned to UK, although she had paid into the system for 10 years before she left.

Gracesgran

Thank you.

40% seems a very high percentage.

Link has good and bad points I guess.

DJ

So what is the answer to my question re university fees , interested to know.

DJ

So what is the answer to my question re university fees , interested to know.

Grants are not the same as benefits.
UK residents are EU residents as far as benefits are concerned. That is the whole point of the thread. Cameron wanted EU citizens to be treated differently, but they cannot as long as the UK is part of the EU.

gracesgran all I was saying was that it does not have to be simply age which qualifies people for benefits etc. but if they wish to cut the benefits being paid to immigrants immediately a different qualifying criteria could be introduced - I used the way a grant is given to Welsh students in Welsh universities as an example - not every student going to a Welsh university gets a grant from the Welsh Assembly. Similarly there could be qualifying status for people gaining benefits. - such as time spent living in UK - or how long contributions to the system the child or parents have made - all sorts of ways not trying to disadvantage any young people at all - and after studying for four years one would hope they would be employed fairly quickly and start to see the benefits of the Education they had and degrees etc they had worked hard for!

Just seen your last comment POGS. No, being self-employed is not wrong per se in my opinion. I have been both employed and self-employed.

Here POGS (You can probably find more if you search.)

I have heard it on the news broadcasts too so I think the figures have been released recently. I am not surprised. Many unemployed have been pointed in this direction - to get them off the statistics perhaps? Also many less scrupulous employers have encouraged employees to become self-employed, possibly illegally as they are only employed by one company who dictate their work times, etc.

You will notice, if you scroll down the article, that it also says "One of the most troubling findings about self-employed workers in the last couple of years has been the fall in their average earnings. IPPR research shows that a typical self-employed worker in the UK earns just over half the amount a typical employee earns. This has slid from around three quarters in 2007."

This and zero hours contracts is the scandal of the so called "jobs factory of Europe" as capitalist DC likes to call it.

Gracesgran

Can I ask where you obtained the figure of 40% of the new labour force over the last 4 years is self employed. That's an extremely high figure.

Not arguing I thought it was 15%. Either way is being self employed a bad thing in your opinion or have I misinterpreted your comment.

That would be good granjura but sadly that is not what the Conservatives are proposing.

Bez, I am not sure what this has to do with people not being able to claim benefits until they have paid in for four years but certainly, if they bring that in, those who do go to University will be disadvantaged in as much as if you leave at 18 and go straight into a job you will be 22 when you have served your four years whereas those who go to University will then have to wait until they are 26 unless they have worked full-time while studying.

All this would not be so bad if there truly was an improvement in the jobs market but, in the last four years, 40 per cent of new jobs have been in self-employment. Many of these will be very low earning and many will fail. We also see UK unemployment going up 1.85 million in the April to June period, a rise of 25,000 on the previous quarter. This is the first time in two years that there have been two consecutive rises in the number of people out of work and really you have to doubt whether we have anything like a stable jobs market. Cameron is prepared to inflict more hardship on those who have to work for their poverty and those who cannot avoid unemployment.

I am not sure what is exactly proposed. But if it means that young people should be paid for taking good quality further training rather than just go on benefits- then I agree.

The mention of Corbyn was not raised by Ana !

I think it's probably because whatever subject we discuss you bring it in.

Bring what in?

So have I got this right according to your posts DJ.

England and Wales could elect to charge students from say Spain, Germany £20.000 per year for their course, whilst students from England and Wales pay £9.000. because education is devolved to national/sovereign countries in the EU .

I thought students from the EU could not be charged a different fee.