IDS - work is good for your health

Trouble with that Annie is that we have no idea of how many cheats there are and that in itself is unfair to the vulnerable - if they could be sorted out then many needy honest people could maybe be given at least what they are getting now and not worry about it being cut or even get a bit more.

I have no problem with a few cheats receiving money if it means the vulnerable will not endure more cut backs ,

Can I ask if any of you have actually been to a medical assessment with a person you know well? We had a young man living with us who had been diagnosed as having mental issues - he was in receipt of disability payments. When the time came for another medical assessment he asked me to go with him. The person who went in and saw the doctor was not the person I saw every day at all - he was able to give a very convincing performance- his whole personna changed and so did his body language - i was not asked any questions. The doctor had never seen him before.
This man did have bad dreams and woke up hitting the walls etc occasionally but most of the time he was fine - he was a very clever manipulative person who knew exactly how to work the system. He was a very accomplished liar and knew how he could get away with owing the bank money etc and have his debts wiped off.
I have great sympathy with people who are ill whether it is mentally or physically - and if it is a person who has worked for years and then become ill I feel there should be no question of them being in fear of having much needed income stopped, and the same for people who have been disabled et from childhood.
Many people who have some disability would like to have a suitable and maybe part time job and be able to work with others with all the associated benefits of friendship etc but others are just not able to do this. It is only a person who has contact over a period of time who is really able to judge the situation - and one who has gained the confidence of the claimant and knows the real score who can make a judgement - looking at a form or a screen is not the answer to making life affecting decisions.
It is about time that people sitting in high places looked at finding another source of getting money from the populace rather than targeting vulnerable people.

But the tabloids love to report about people who have suffered under the system too - the diabetic man who was found dead in his house (mentioned in another thread) was widely reported at the time and the fact that his benefits were cut was blamed. So too many others, a story is a story to the tabloids.

I guess it is the "poor but proud" that are of no interest.

Yes luckygirl I met some wonderful people who I begged to apply for help but who refused to. The lives some people lead and quietly put up with beggars belief sometimes. The tabloids aren't interested in them though.

Indeed it is a minority who make it hard for others - but the people who suffer under the system are not front page news; they do not make good documentaries with catchy headlines. The work-shy chancers are wonderful tabloid fodder, but how often do these articles or programmes make it clear what percentage of those on benefit are thought to be on the make illegally?

Whatever system of benefits exists, there will be dishonest people who will seek to take advantage of it unfairly. I do not think there will ever be a way of rooting them all out.

I met so many people who were embarrassed to be in need of benefit and would have given their right arm (if they had one, in some instances) to be in work and paying their way. For many it feels like a stigma.

A few people I know in life only do extremes. They seem unable to do their lives other than on stop or start. High or low.
They dont seem to be able to do a middle ground on anything at all.

I will say what I think to be the truth dj. No matter which side it is on, or whether that often puts me in the middle of opinions.

I read the vox link.

And I take issue with a line in it, for what it is worth. It says " He reckons they are all lying about themselves.."

jane it is a typical situation of the minority spoiling it for the majority who do deserve it.

Apologies lucky I should have separated out my statement of exposing those who work the system from your statement of supporting the genuinely sick and disabled.

I agree with grannyknot. Unfortunately some chancers do work the system very effectively. It used to infuriate me on behalf of the people I worked with who did have hidden disorders. They suffered because others gave them all a bad name. One tip I was given by one 'nice' man was - go to any appointments with chocolate smeared around your mouth. It certainly worked for him. Shame about all the others.
Just having a workplace, a routine, companionship and feeling that you're doing something useful is extremely therapeutic. Its a pity that some of the more imaginative projects lost their funding. We have some social firms up here which are a pleasure to deal with. How about expanding/encouraging the development of more?

Do you have to fudge every response, soon?
You must be getting sore from sitting on the fence all the time.

luckygirl so are you saying that previous governments attempted to implement changes to the rules? (I presume you are talking about some time ago re DSS changes). You are correct that we must find ways of supporting the genuinely sick and disabled and expose those who "work the system" because that does happen in a minority of cases.

I think I've said this before, I used to work in a drug and alcohol service and the more streetwise clients of that service used to run circles around the kind (often foreign) staff grade doctors when it came to getting forms signed off.

A very complex situation.

Jen, some have not the foggiest

I think that you would have to be quite clever to feign long term mental illness.

I dont doubt there are some who manage it, but I would have thought that the numbers would be small.

voxpoliticalonline.com/2015/08/24/work-is-good-for-your-mental-health-says-well-known-iain-duncan-smith-he-should-be-worried-about-his-own/

This isn't the Daily Mail.

However many suicides there are will not be known as IDS is trying to fix the figures at the moment for people who have died whilst being sanctioned.

Luckygirl, I really fear the harm this will do to those who do not have visible disabilities

There used to be supported work placements for people with disabilities of all kinds - mental and physical. A great deal of that support has been withdrawn, as with many positive and preventive schemes.

I used to work for the Shaw Trust, who put into practice a government scheme to subsidise employers for employing disabled people. I believe it still exists, but I am not sure how it is funded now. I was employed to go around to the work places to talk to both employer and employee to make sure the placement was working well.

Many sick people are in a panic about the rules as regards benefits for those too unwell to work, especially those with mental health problems, as this is poorly understood. Their vulnerability to such stringent rules is huge - there will be suicides I doubt not.

I spent years working on the DSS to change the rules about what was then DLA, as people with head injuries who had subtle and not obvious disabilities were being denied benefit. They could not work because of problems such as memory, sequencing (e.g. putting your pants on before your trousers), concentration etc. - all things that made them unemployable. They did in the end change the rules - but it is these sorts of people with hidden disabilities who will find themselves in trouble.

If work is good for us, then we need to find ways of supporting and subsidising work for those who are sick and disabled.

I assure you to receive ESA one needs more than a doctors sick note jingle , and you are mistaken , many with mental illness are not handled sensitively by those who decide if they should receive ESA, it may make you feel comfortable believing it is so . In less than a year we have suffered the loss of two young people who were passed fit for work by the experts behind computers but with no medical knowledge who hanged themselves and a third who jumped in the river , that's how fit for work and sensitively treated they were . Must you be so aggressive jingle?

The ones feigning illness will not have got as far as having a mental health team. Just a GP handing out pills and sick notes.

As I have already said, for the others it will be handled sensitively. The really ill will be cared for just as now.

Read the bloody posts properly ab.

Printmiss, can you explain how a person with a mental illness can deceive their mental health team ? Jingle thinks some can and do

I agree with jingle there will always be those who are unable to work, but who would probably love to be able to do so, and there are those who will never work simply because it is not part of their make-up to do so. I think that everyone feels that those who are genuinely vulnerable need all the help they can get, but personally, I am a little tired of those who are able to work seem to find it difficult to do so. Yes, I know there is a shortage of jobs in some places, so there are exceptions to everything. There is no really easy answer to any of these problems.

Jingle, employers are not eager to employ people with mental illness , and you are so wrong to claim the truely ill have nothing to fear . It is not easy to feign mental illness , I suppose it is if one has a very stupid GP, CPN, Physciatrist and councillor, wonder how many attend surgeries who have all these

And for goodness sake, don't get your information from the Daily Mail.