Can a drunk woman give consent?

How to define 'provocative clothing'? Mini skirts, for example,
have been around for fifty years. Most of us gransnetters must have worn one at some time. I have. My DiLs do, and so do my GDs. I don't believe that the majority of men take scanty clothing as an invitation to have sex.

How to define 'provocative clothing'? Mini skirts, for example, have been around for fifty years. Most of us gransnetters must have worn one at some time. I have. My DiLs do, and so do my GDs. I don't believe that the majority of men take scanty clothing as an invitation to have sex.

I agree with all of that. Never disagreed. The salient point of all my posts was "How can women distinguish a potential rapist from a genuine date? The truth is - she can't "

And of course protection can be control and control can be abuse.

The answer (if there is one) is the education of boys from an early age into a culture that abhors rape and the use of superior force (physical and non-physical) under all circumstances, not just male-female relations.

Is Utopia just round the corner?

For the third time, I am off to do Other Things. Really.

Thanks, Puffin. Very helpful.

MYTH: Women are most likely to be raped by a stranger, outside, in dark alleyways.
REALITY: More than 80% of women who are raped know their attacker; 53% of perpetrators of serious sexual assaults are current partners or ex-partners.

In fact, over two-thirds of rapes take place in the victim's home, the suspect's home or the victim/suspect's shared home. This myth can mean that women who are raped in these circumstances don't identify their experience as rape, and therefore don't report it.

It also puts blame on the victim, and limits women's freedom of movement by implying that rape can be prevented by avoiding certain places.

MYTH: Women provoke rape by their appearance or their behaviour
It's never your fault. No woman 'asks to be raped' or 'deserves what she gets' - only the rapist is responsible for the rape.
REALITY: Dressing attractively, or flirting, is never an invitation to rape. Rape is not a 'crime of passion' - it is an expression of power and control.
No woman 'asks to be raped' or 'deserves what she gets' - only the rapist is responsible for the rape. Rape happens to all types of women, from the very young to the very old - physical appearance is irrelevant.

There is no 'typical rape victim'. There is only one common factor in all rapes, and that is the rapist.

MYTH: If a woman didn't struggle, wasn't injured, or didn't report immediately - she wasn't raped
REALITY: Victims may cooperate with the rapist to save their lives; or they may be paralysed by fear. Following rape, many victims experience shock; this can make them seem 'unnaturally calm'.
Victims are often legitimately afraid of being killed or seriously injured; the rapist may have threatened further harm - or harm to family members - if they resist. The victim's perception of danger will influence their behaviour.
Victims may experience shame, shock, or denial, which might mean they do not report the rape for some time. The Court of Appeal has ruled that a late complaint does not mean that it's a false complaint.

MYTH: Women who get drunk or take drugs shouldn't be surprised if they are raped or sexually assaulted
REALITY: Being vulnerable does not imply consent. If a woman is drunk, drugged or unconscious, she is not able to consent to sex.
Being vulnerable does not imply consent. If a woman is drunk, drugged or unconscious, she is not able to consent to sex.
If a woman has consumed alcohol (fewer than four in 10 cases), it is the man's responsibility to ensure that the victim has given, or is capable of giving, consent. If he does not do so, he is committing rape.

Simlilarly, a woman is not to blame if she drinks alcohol and is raped. Women have the same right to consume alcohol as men.

MYTH: Women often lie about rape, and police officers and jurors should bear this in mind
REALITY: There is no research evidence that false allegations are more common than for many other crimes.
Home Office research indicates that between 3-8% of initial allegations are false, but that the lower figure is likely to be most accurate.
Far from being widespread, malicious accusations are rare. A much greater problem in the criminal justice system is the under-reporting of rape - the government estimates that 89% of rapes are never reported to the police at all.
In addition, only 5.3% of rapes reported to the police end in a conviction for rape - the lowest rate of any country in Europe, except for Ireland.

MYTH: It's not rape if a woman has consented to some sexual intimacy, or has previously had sex with many partners
REALITY: A woman can withdraw consent at any time during sexual activity. Having many previous sexual partners does not imply generalised consent to sex.
A woman has a right to change her mind about having sex at any time during sexual contact. If a sexual partner does not stop at this point, it is sexual assault. All men are capable of stopping sexual activity at any point.

Likewise, having previously consented to sex with other partners does not imply consent to all partners. Women involved in prostitution are as capable of being raped as other women.

MYTH: Rape can't take place in an ongoing relationship
Previous consent to sex does not imply ongoing consent, and sex without consent is rape.
REALITY: Previous consent to sex does not imply ongoing consent, and sex without consent is rape. It makes no difference whether the aggressor is a woman's husband or partner, or a complete stranger - 22% of rapes are committed by partners or ex-partners.
It's irrelevant whether or not a person is in a relationship with someone or has had sex with them previously. Lord Judge, Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, told a court to approach rape within a relationship, including marriage, as "no less serious than rape by a stranger".

Consent must be given every time two people engage in sexual contact. Sex without consent is rape.

MYTH: Some rapes aren't 'serious' rapes
REALITY: All rape is a violation, whether or not the rapist is a stranger, or uses violence. 

All rapes are serious; some rapes and sexual assaults are compounded by other crimes, such as further violence, kidnapping or abuse, which will add to the woman's trauma.

Acquaintance rape survivors may feel particularly vulnerable, since they have found that even people they trusted may hurt them. They may often have to face their assailants after the rapes, causing additional distress, fear and humiliation. They also tend to view themselves more negatively, and suffer more serious psychological problems than other victims.

Sorry, Elegran this is not personal. 'Once upon a time' women were kept under the protection of fathers and brothers who also abused them. It's not the role of men to protect women, in the past or now. We protect the vulnerable, not capable people who are just getting on with life. Instead of assigning themselves the role of protector, breadwinner or whatever, men would do well to concentrate on themselves and examine how they can stop women's safety being threatened, by changing their own attitudes or denouncing those of disrespectful, abusive men. Again, it's those abusive men who don't care who is looking after herself - they create opportunities that most people would never see. It's not about short skirts or low tops, nor going out at night alone. Women will generally avoid or run away from threatening situations (those rare headline rape stories about women getting drunk are not as common) - rapists who make friends or go on dates create seemingly safe situations.

This heart is sinking, when - along with feeling bloody furious!

They were shielded from the company of predatory males No they weren't, they were controlled. Not allowed out alone in case they did something that their family didn't approve of.

Oh & it is worth noting that most people seem to to be thinking about stranger rape (which occurs because the victim "got drunk/wore the wrong clothes/went home with him/got in a cab with him"). In actual fact, stranger rape occurs in less than 5% of cases.

You are actually more at risk with someone you know. And it doesn't matter what you are wearing then.

How do all those blaming rape on women view a man's right to have sex with his wife, any time he likes?

"Once upon a time" women did not go anywhere alone, were protected by their fathers, then their brothers, until they were safely married and the task was taken over by their husbands. They were shielded from the company of predatory males (which was assumed to be all males)

We have thankfully progressed from those times, but date and acquaintance rape is still a danger. How can women distinguish a potential rapist from a genuine date? The truth is - she can't - and neither can a court of law. All she can do is to be careful.

And now I am definitely out of this conversation before it turns into personal accusations.

I think that saying women are responsible for themselves negates the fact that the intention to rape overrides the majority of attempts to keep safe, or go about your day in a normal way. Short of hiding away from society, women can only do so much. It has to be repeated, if you examine date and acquaintance rape cases, there is nothing significant about what she wore, said, did or drank that prompted an attack. If anything, angry rapists see a 'demure' potential victim as a challenge.

Thankfully, rape is still not an experience for the majority of women, but for those who have been raped, their hearts must be sinking when they read some of the comments on here.

so get angry when the "treat" is taken away from them.

Men are not toddlers.

A woman's body is not a treat. It is not a reward for any type of behaviour.

Perhaps if a man gets angry when you remove their 'treat' they need to seek help with their anger issues.

Except to say that I have never said or implied that "There is no any excuse for the minority of disrespectful abusive twats that fell like they have the right to sex even if their partner doesn't want it." but I did say that women are responsible for themselves.

When the evening begins, the experience is for the benefit of both parties. At some point in the evening - in private - their wishes diverge. One of them gets his wish, the other does not get hers. The experience should have stopped at some time before that. If it does not, it is a criminal act.

I am a realist. I hate rape. I am no rape apologist, neither do I use any of the names that were prevalent when I was young for girls who "led men on", like "cockteaser". Girls have freedom now, with it comes danger.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"

I am out of this conversation.

What a load of shit, most randy young men arnt thinking too much about how much their partner will enjoy it?

Most young men are quite capable of keeping their dicks in their pants, however randy they are. There is no excuse for the minority of disrespectful abusive twats that fell like they have the right to sex even if their partner doesn't want it.

Do you have another analogy that woukd be useful for educating young people, Elegran? I think the tea explanation is simple and easy to grasp, and doesn't need to be dissected on an intellectual level.

That is what I said, DixieNormas.

Proving in public what you said in private is the difficult bit.

but sex is for the benefit of both parties But the thread is about rape. Rape is not sex.

I don't think most randy young men are thinking too much about how much their partner is going to enjoy it, more about how much they will, and they are full of adrenaline, so get angry when the "treat" is taken away from them. So it is the victims fault for making his angry now.

Keep digging, because right now you are doing a fab impression of a rape apologist!

I would not use the degrading phrase "ovenready" That was someone else.

It doesn't matter how much you drink, what you wear, where you walk rape is rape and the only person to blame is the rapist.

I like the tea analogy, but I do think that the cup of tea was made mostly for the benefit of the drinker - with the maker enjoying the prospect of the drinker gulping it down, of course - but sex is for the benefit of both parties.

I don't think most randy young men are thinking too much about how much their partner is going to enjoy it, more about how much they will, and they are full of adrenaline, so get angry when the "treat" is taken away from them.

If someone has just been saying how thirsty they are and how much they do enjoy a nice cuppa, then turning down a cup could come as a bit of a surprise to a keen teamaker who is thirsty himself.

but if a girl goes out looking oven-ready she is asking for trouble.

What the fuck does that even mean?

No. I don't blame a victim for her rape.

Women have the right to show a lot of flesh if they want to, but they also have the responsibility of not promising more than they will want to deliver. ---- Victim blaming

And, yes, if you flirt and talk suggestively it is MORE LIKELY that a man will assume you are willing to put your body where your mouth is. ---- more victim blaming

if you put the onus for preventing a rape on the woman's actions, as you have above "if she didn't promise more then she wanted to deliver" "if you flirt, you have to follow through (paraphrased)" You ARE blaming the victim for her rape. If you tell a rape victim that by doing things differently, she could have avoided her rape, that is victim blaming.

You do not have to go up to a victim & say "you are to blame for your rape' in order to blame her.

No. I don't blame a victim for her rape. I blame the man who raped her. Rape is not a new phenomenon, it has been around for ever, ever since Adam and Eve - and that old excuse "The woman tempted me, so I did eat" has been around for ever too. It always will be.

Just as all the other excuses for selfishness and crime have been around for ever. "They've plenty of money, I have none, they won't miss a few pounds" "" "He insulted me." " He deserved to die." " I lost my temper"

Not all men rape, but there are those who will use force to get what they want. Women - particularly young women just starting out on the social scene and looking for romance, not sex, need to know that. Mothers of daughters need to keep telling them so, and mothers of sons need to keep telling them that it is NOT Ok to press someone for sex when they have said no, even if they looked and acted as though they would be willing.

"Proving" whether someone was or was not willing after the event is very very difficult. It depends on one word against another. If it is assumed that no woman ever claims to have said no when she was willing at the time, then there will be - there are - men who are labelled rapists when they are no such thing, just as, if men are always believed, there will be women who are labelled as crying wolf when they had consensual sex.

It is a minefield.

whenim64 thank you for posting a copy of the 'consent' post from Mums net. What a brilliant piece of writing.

PS Wish I could type faster!

Actually Elegran I don't think most of the posts are very sensible because most of the posts about how a woman should act or behave are about imposing someone's own beliefs on another person.

The posts may be articulate, but 'sensible' is subjective and I do not believe if a woman doesn't do the 'sensible' things suggested that she is in any way responsible for unwanted sex.

As I said in my first post, I am shocked at some of the attitudes on here, even more so now.

Interestingly, a new series called The Ascent of Women started on BBC2 last night and judging/controlling women by how they dress started around 4000 BC. Reading some of the posts on this thread shows that sadly this appears to be continuing even in the modern world.