Cameron Shaming the Country

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/04/david-cameron-limit-uk-syrian-refugee-intake-discourage-dangerous-journeys

Can we please stop Cameron talking as if he represents us all?
He is not saying what he does in my name.

Next line translates as how green are your leaves.

Rosequartz, can I sing "Oh Tannenbaum" instead?

Not sure that I'm a fascist, but compared to some I'm sure I appear to be. Anyway, I don't really care what others call me, 'sticks and stones' and all that. People can think and say what they like, I'm just not bothered, particularly on an impersonal chat forum!

Gracesgran why do they sing 'The Red Flag' at the end of Labour rallies then?

Perhaps they should change it to 'The Sort of Pinkish Flag' or 'A Delicate Shade of Mauve Flag' ?

Jane10 when you call people names and label them in a way that has ended peoples livelihoods and excluded them from some communities in the past you might expect people to feel a bit miffed themselves
How did you exercise such power Jane? I am intrigued. Who ARE you?

Fascist Jane it will be then. After all you seem to like "dictating" to others what they think. Of course you will not mind being defined by others so that's all right then.

Call me what you like. I wouldn't be 'miffed' at all. I don't take that sort of thing as seriously as others seem to. Probably because I have a sense of proportion and other things to worry about.

There really is a big difference between socialists and communists - which "red" indicates Jane. I do realise how little some on here understand about the degrees of "left of centre" and perhaps you don't mean to be quite as insulting as you are being but, when comparing extremes - it would be like calling all those who are right of centre, "fascists". Really Jane how do you think those who consider themselves to be just right of centre (right wing liberals?) to the extremes of the BMP, would feel being called "fascists"? It may not be a conspiracy but some will find it very insulting.

You may now get very huffy but when you call people names and label them in a way that has ended peoples livelihoods and excluded them from some communities in the past you might expect people to feel a bit miffed themselves.

Will the socialists on here desist from singing 'The Red Flag' at any future rallies lest we think of them as 'Red Grans'?

What a pity - quite a nice tune that!
Goes off humming.

For goodness sake! I used the term 'red grans' solely to refer to the group who are very clearly socialists. They happily vilify our elected government then get upset if they are challenged by any of us who do not share all of their views. This is not a 'trick' or an attempt to prevent their posting. It was a way of avoiding typing out a list of names. No conspiracy here!

I think it was me, in trying to explain how far wrong people calling those who support Corbyn, Marxists or Communists, were and that it was akin to saying those on here who are to the right of politics (some, seemingly, to the very far right) are fascists. I think you will find that no one or any group was called fascists, it was a comparison to show how extreme the original name callers were.

So, having tried to use Marxism or Communism to mark people out and, presumably, stop them from posting the latest trick is to insist this forum contains "Red Grans". Are we now to having McCarthyism* on Gransnet? Reds under the threads perhaps. For heavens sake just put your arguments forward and please stop this attempt to restrict other peoples posting.

(*Just for those who do not know the damage McCarthyism did McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence. It also means "the practice of making unfair allegations or using unfair investigative techniques, especially in order to restrict dissent or political criticism. )

Sorry about the American spelling! That's what comes of using a kindle! Apologies for any offense caused!

Although in defence of niggly's comments, there are certainly occasions when it's just not worth interrupting the flow of some threads when the posters are all of the same political persuasion and are having a great time having a go at the opposite side.

True.

Neither had I, not sure how or why nigglynellie has come to that conclusion.

Of course it's silly to get into tit for tat exchanges, but posters at either end and the middle of the political spectrum are equally as guilty of that.

I suppose it's human nature to take umbrage at what is sometimes seen as an attack upon or criticism of one's own beliefs. We can't all speak with the voice of reason at all times...

Ana I think that the use of the word "fascist" was in response to some posters' insistence on labelling all those supporting Corbyn as Marxists or Communists. It's a bit silly to get into these "tit for tat" exchanges but that's what tends to happen when people are provoked.

If someone called me a "fascist" I would be very annoyed and would express my annoyance (as I did about the "red grans" dig), but I certainly wouldn't feel "intimidated" and unable to continue contributing to the thread.

I hadn't noticed the "blue grans" being especially "timid" or "tentative" in putting forward their opinions or of being "easily terrorized" into silence." Terrorized?!

It is less about the political views of posters and more about discussing a way forward. I see no reason why many people in the UK might not be concerned about the logistics of incorporating a lot of refugees, and recognise that some homeless Britons will sigh in despair. But it is not an either/or situation - taking in refugees does not mean that attempts to house British homeless people should stop. Clearly there are finite resources, but we are a rich country and we must play our part.

In the last analysis these people are just that, fellow people faced with the most appalling situation. No-one can blame them for trying to escape.

I do not think that concern for these people is the province of any one group of posters with a particular political bias - I am sure that everyone is concerned to see a solution to this misery. And people should feel free to express their concerns about a particular solution.

As I have said before, the only answer is a global one, with countries pulling together to help.

Hmm...someone referred to a tory voter as a 'fascist' a few days ago - it cuts both ways, Eloethan!

nigglynellie I really object to your comment "But they are Red Grans! and they at times intimidate other posters to the point of not posting anything even remotely contradictary to their views. Hence being wary of being shouting down!"

As I have said before, why on earth wouldn't somebody post because others might disagree with them? You are anonymous on this site so what are you frightened of? God help us if this country were ever invaded if people feel intimidated and frightened just because others might not agree with them. There are several people on this thread who have expressed support for Cameron's stance. They express their views strongly, which they are entitled to do, and I wouldn't call that "shouting down" or go hiding away in a corner because I felt "intimidated".

Anyway, if you look through this thread you will find that there is quite an even balance of views. Nobody is shouting anybody down and there was even a jokey moment when durhamjen was put in charge of the world for a couple of seconds. But some people do like to make the occasional dig, e.g. referring to "Corbyn worshippers" and "red grans" and making sarcastic comments. They are, fortunately, in the minority.

I'm very brave on election day under the cover of anonymity, as are, obviously, quite a lot of other people!

Rosesarered , you can be peaches and cream , here in the mountains it's rust

So bullshit to an opinion was given timidly Nellie?

I'm only a pale blue gran but can strap on hob nailed Birkenstocks if required!

Yes I do think we should take our fair percentage of the Syrian refugees, as they are just that refugees and not economic migrants. Their need is immediate and they need to be helped right now. Nevertheless, given the number of migrants this country takes from both inside and outside the EU, and the fact that population has increased by several million in the past couple of years, perhaps we should offset taking a fair number of Syrians against further prospective migration, particularly from outside the EU, and especially for those who do not have a skill or expertise that we require. We have an acute housing, school places shortage, particularly here in London and planned affordable housing seems to be a dribble rather than the tidal wave of accommodation that needs to be provided to cope with our burgeoning population. You can't just have mass migration without the infrastructure and space to deal with it. I know we do still have empty areas, but I think it's fair to say that newcomers will want to settle where there are jobs and opportunities so they are going to be in competition with settled communities for the housing, schooling and hospitals.

Victor Orban the Prime Minister of Hungary has stated that Hungary is a predominantly Christian country and they are not very open to being overwhelmed by Muslims. Whilst I don't agree that it is Eastern Europe's prerogative to be part of the EU, and to expect to remain a mono culture. I can see where his concerns spring from. There is an element within that religion that is proselytizing and as alarming as Christianity was at it's absolute worst. Eastern Europe will no doubt look towards it's western counterparts and know that a small percentage of our Muslim population do not like our way of life, do not wish to integrate with us and come to the west wishing to continue with cultural practices where are unacceptable and often illegal. Maybe therefore he wishes to forestall a potential lack of cohesion down the line.

Or it could be rust with all this Welsh rain that anniebach mentioned!