I can't help it

Poetic licence Ana. I was also trying to get around the censor. Depends of course on the sources you read.

'Shagged a dead animal' - I don't think there was any suggestion of that, Devorgilla, even by the most anti-Cameron publications. Not even 'allegedly'.

rosesarered yes, although the papers do usually stick to their usual side of the fence. I can't remember the last time the Daily Fail printed something negative about the sainted SamCam.

I am amazed at how quickly this story seems to be dying. If it had been JC instead of DC I think it would have 'run and run'. Couldn't be the influence of the Tory Press, could it?
Yes, everyone got up to stupid stuff when we were young but I don't think many people would have (allegedly) shagged a dead animal. Shows a lack of judgment to me and a line of decency which should not be crossed. There are undertones to all of this which are unsavoury. One assumption is that if you pay enough you can buy your way into high office. That goes against the grain with me although I have long accepted that it probably happens. 'Going forth and multiplying' with a pig is a slang term at University for having sex with an unattractive woman. I object to that as well. Drug taking, as long as it is in the past, seems par for the course these days. I don't want people making decisions about my life and others while under the influence. I could go on, but suffice to say, I don't want the PM of my country going into high powered talks where everyone is going 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink'.
If you are in need of a good laughh over it though go to #piggate and read the captions on the pictures. Priceless!

Although if they stick to 'allegedly' and 'according to an unnamed source' they'll be OK. Ashcroft didn't claim it as a definite fact, did he...?

Though they may well find themselves 'gagged' soon,as it could be a libel matter.

Wilma.... It sells papers.

I think its the sheer hypocrisy that gets me, Dr David Nutt is desperately trying to fund research with drugs that could help with depression, PTSD, anxiety caused by terminal illness etc. etc., but because of their classification finds himself encountering endless barriers and vast costs.

Why do we ignore accounts about the variety of conditions helped by medical cannabis in countries where it is legal, and the savings made in police departments, courts and prisons quite apart from the effects on the lives of those caught with small amounts? (Jeffrey Archer's prison diary is worth reading)!My guess is is lobbying by interested parties such as the tobacco and alcohol industry, big pharma and maybe the evangelical side of the church.

POGS you said "Ashcroft wrote the book to get revenge for not being given a government post by Cameron. Cameron could not be bought by him."

I agree that it appears Ashcroft wrote the book to get revenge for not being given a government post by Cameron. But as to whether Cameron could not be bought, we don't know. I believe Ashcroft claims that Cameron told him that he'd wanted to appoint him but Clegg had vetoed it.

It is the scent of other attackers. It excites the killer instinct.

rosesarered yes, DC has said he would step down. So why has the right wing media joined in discrediting him and his wife (to a much lesser extent)?

Brilliant post Elegran, just one thing, not the Bullingdon (of which DC was undeniably a member) but the Piers Gaveston and no, I do not speak from any experience

If Ashcroft were to make these allegations in a court of law, not an autobiography, he would asked some searching questions, such as -

1) "Did you observe this in person?"
If the answer is "no" then the testimony is hearsay, and not admissable, and the next Q is
2)"Who told you this?" so that the information can be traced back to its source.

If the answer to Q1 is "yes", then the next questions are -
3) "Were you a member of the same initiation ceremony?" because if so, then he would presumably have gone through the same initiation himself - which tars him with the same brush. Pots and kettles.
4) "Who else was present?" so that corroboration can be sought.
5) "Why did you wait all those years to disclose this about a man who aspired to high office?" Was it perhaps, because Ashcroft thought he could use it to blackmail himself into office and then turned on Cameron when that preferment failed to materialise? Blackmail is an offence.

Than there are other questions. He claims it was an initiation rite of the Bullingdon club. Someone else has said that JC was never a member of that club. Inconsistency.

Somehow, I can't help feeling that this has no substance, and that is not because I see JC wearing a halo of sanctity and perfection. Heaven knows how let down Corbyn's fervent supporters will be if someone produces a similar accusation against him and their holy image of him. But they would of course have to prove chapter and verse.

Members of every College in Oxford will belong to some club or other, there is certainly a lot of drinking going on, but that goes for most Unis these days.Also, we must remember, that these are simply allegations made in a book and that the person who ran that particular club says that DC was never a member( there are lots of clubs.)So it's not actual Gospel in the first place.

I think the raucous drinking club members are a tiny minority of Oxford students. Really tiny.

I don't think any knives are out at all for DC, he has already said that will go before the next election.

Not sure what the clubs of Oxford today get up to, but they used to feature all sorts of daft stuff ( my DD was there some years ago) mainly the young men, but some girls clubs that did all sorts as well.Much drink was taken, and initiation and rites formed the cornerstone of it all.When drunk, some people will do almost anything.A lot of men will have been in the same clubs in Oxford As DC ,I don't think that they will be too worried by any allegations,and if they are, can simply deny it.Nobody expects drinking clubs to have sensible rules.So I expect DC will either deny it or laugh it off.
as to the cash for jobs, I think all the parties have been guilty of that over the years for the big donors.

Oxford Uni has had outreach programmes in place for ages.

One thing I heard on the Today programme this morning, and something I agree with. Oxford University has an active outreach programme in place at the moment with the aim of encouraging more students from comprehensives to apply to Oxford. This kind of thing will not do that programme any favours. Shame the media have made a big thing of it.

Eloethan

I never mentioned Ashcroft's tax dealings.

POGS You are making an assumption in your last post.

I agree Ashcroft has revealed himself to be both vengeful and corrupt since he has acknowledged that his motive for giving large donations to the Conservative Party was to buy political influence.

However, I can't see how you can possibly know whether he was either explicitly told or implicitly given the nod that he would obtain a government post/be consulted as to his views on policy initiatives that might affect his tax and business affairs. It seems a bit odd that Ashcroft would implicate himself in something that also reflects badly on him unless there is at least an element of truth in his claims.

I think it's significant the DM is relishing in portraying DC in this light at this time and wondered if his time is over. It's shocking how quickly the media can do an about face with someone. The articles are involving Sam Cameron too, so maybe the knives are out.

There's been a couple of articles about how the behaviour under the microscope is on another level compared with other young people who were at university, etc. and to be honest I think I agree. It's nothing to do with private clubs, etc., but more to do with how the members are willing to behave. There's a level of degradation involved to which most people would not stoop. Lots of people will regret things they did when they were young, but personally I can't pass this more extreme behaviour as the high jinks of youth.

I am going to repeat what I posted on the Corbyn /Abbot 'affair' thread.

I don't give a tuppeny toss about who was doing what with whom on a personal level. Won't be the first, won't be the last.

I agree this is tittle tattle at times and I wish it wasn't reported at times (wrote about).

However!

I also think there is an underlying reason for knowing when the person in question can be held accountable for perhaps 'showing favour', 'potential blackmail scenarios' (sadly used when someone is withholding the sexuality), 'uses their relationship (history) to seek publicity for their own self promotion , whether it be in the work place , writing a book etc.

The thing to remember is not to cast stones at one politician or party as they will all be in the dock at some time. People in glass houses scenario.

I will add , not to defend Cameron as some will assume! , the story with the pigs head is NOT a fact neither when the book was produced nor at this present time.

Now some photo or another may come to light , who knows. If neither Oakshott nor Ashcroft can provide evidence then I elect to see it as a nasty piece of work and out to cause the utmost damage possible until proof of their words is known. I think the more times the proof is asked for and not given the more they both look like nothing more than pieces of work for writing about it. If proof does arise then fine, it happened and people will consider what they feel having that knowledge. The kangaroo court will obviously assume they know what happened , that's their way.

Ashcroft wrote the book to get revenge for not being given a government post by Cameron. Cameron could not be bought by him .

And they say there is nothing like a 'woman' scorned. Ashcroft proves that saying is way off course.

Indeed!!

It reminds me of Animal Farm

"The creatures looked from pig to man and from man to pig and it was I possible to say which was which"