And so it begins.

Rosequartz, I'm a labour voter, just catching up with recent posts on this rather unpleasant, often polarised discussion. I didn't vote for jeremy but Imo he has a mandate and I'll support him as part leader. I don't want to do away with the armed forces. We need a strong navy, airforce and army imo

My work over 35 years brought me into contact with many ex service personnel and I heir families. Levels of drug and alcohol abuse, domestic abuse, homelessness and other stresses are higher amongst that group than many others. I don't feel it's fair to see them as simply lay leaving one kind of employment and in search of alternatives. The inevitable traumas they have experienced don't sit easily with having been eg a bus driver who finds hims of made redundant.

A street in Newton heath, Manchester has been renovated as homes for heros. Princ Harry and William have been on site, and in support. Good, our armed services need to have their service recognised.

Young people often go into the services after a childhood in care. This implies that they may already have personal problems and no experience of living alone. They may also have few if any family support or connections. They are supported and provided with everyday needs by the services and when they leave do not find it easy to get a job and support themselves.

True Eriel, I also came across many young people who'd had difficult childhoods but not been in care. This doesn't mean that many ambitious and more grounded young people don't sign up, of course

Thank you for that post Iam64
The only time DH has been out of work (and we have been desperately worried) has been when he left the Forces.
We had to move to a much more expensive area for work in the end and it was a very difficult time.

ps DH didn't have a difficult childhood, but in those days it was a very good way of getting an apprenticeship and excellent training. The trouble was, when you left the Forces, some employers tried to offer lower wages as they said 'you'll have your Forces pension to make up the difference'!

This is how we are going to house the refugees.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/28/nigerian-care-workers-to-be-deported-after-immigration-raids

Send care workers back to where they came from over ten years ago. Then there will be lots of flats/houses for the new ones. Problem solved by a cruel law.

What concerns me mostly is the number of young men claiming refugee status. We have seen migrants interviewed on the tv from Pakistan. The German invitation opened the floodgates and now they cannot cope. These muslim young men suddenly entering a new culture will struggle with their beliefs in western society. Working in Further Education Colleges and schools has demonstrated to me that some young men will find the change in culture difficult while some of the women embrace their newly found freedom.

tigger How often must I say that Germany I did not issue an invitation. Fr Merkel just said in her own parliament that Germany could cope, that we would have to cope. Germany is a land for refugees, this is fact since WW2. Laid down in a constitutionin 1945 together with the Allies.
Just because the refugees were coming Fr Merkel could not turn round and say we have changed our minds. She is a positive person.

The fact that one day the Middle East and North Africa would want to come to Europe has been obvious for many years. Just that we in Europe have closed our eyes to this vision. We have just removed the dictators who kept their people down.

Correction constitution

rosequartz, I do understand even though you think I don't. I have lived in a garrison town for years, there was a time , before the selling off of council houses, councils housed families leaving the armed forces , this stopped because of housing shortages. I know marriage break ups are high in the armed forces and for different reasons. Housing is in such a mess now , who gets priority? Alcoholics are not supported because rehab centres have been closed, cut backs in mental health services.

I am not unsympathetic , so many people in the same desperate circumstances

Well Margaret X we must have a different understanding of the situation. I didn't pick this up from the Daily Mail. Germany is seriously short of highly skilled and qualified individuals and welcome the opportunity to top up their shortfall in all areas. This information came via the BBC and other credible media sources. Recently on BBC News an Oxford Don suggested that Germany had "lured" the migrants. I would prefer to use the word"
encouraged". Nevertheless, Germany made no secret of the fact that they would welcome everyone and now they can't cope.

PS Did we close our eyes to those who escaped the horrors of WW11? Did we close our eyes when we took in thousands expelled from Uganda? I don't think so.

What did you expect Germany to say, tigger?

I was thinking today that on the whole we are a tolerant society - at least I hope we are.
I wondered if some people are worried that some of the refugees themselves will bring with them a type of intolerance and an insistence on their own laws particularly with regard to Muslim women, and not the law of the land?
www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5512/sharia-courts-muslim-women

Rose. We already have those people here. I/we don't want any more.
I'm sick to my stomach every time I read of another daughter, sister being killed because she wants to make her own choices in her life. And young girls being sent to Pakistan to marry an old man.

Looks like Germany is toughening up the rules. Nobody from Balkan states or other countries deemed safe to be admitted. I suppose that's why there's suddenly a market in counterfeit ID papers and people trying to learn Syrian words etc.

Well Durhamjen, that's a loaded question! I don't know what I expected them to say but it has been widely reported what they DID say.

DH and I were out and about and came across premises calling itself a refugee shop. We stopped to look at the notices and were surprised to find that they were quite specific about what kind of help they would accept. Only good quality clothes for young men, no women's clothes, no children's clothes, no toys and no bedding. Money was mentioned four times especially to purchase petrol. Where are the families ? looks like they were preparing to take fit young men only.

I have taken what was left of DHs clothes to a collection point here for the refugees. They have an online list of what is needed, and what at the moment is not needed. In Calais the ratio of men to women is 10:1, but there are far more clothes being donated for women and children. Some idiots are also donating complete junk, and unsuitable things - a Santa mankini for instance.

This collection centre is very specific in their list.
"- Large cardboard/plastic boxes, parcel tape, bin liners, labels and other items that can used for packaging donations.

- Men's practical clothing, including warm jackets, waterproofs, trousers, belts, socks and underwear. In particular smaller sizes are more commonly required for all, so size small - medium is most useful, and bear in mind that winter is fast approaching. Please remember that the European camps are populated largely by men and we currently have an enormous surplus of women's and children's clothing, so men's clothing and shoes are in much higher demand.

- Men's and women's practical shoes (trainers and walking boots, not flip-flops, town shoes or dress shoes). Again, men's shoes are in far greater demand.

- Gloves, scarves and hats.

- Tools, ropes, basic building supplies and equipment, pallets and army tents.

- Backpacks and travel bags (suitcases are less appropriate but still useful).

- Tents, tarpaulins, sleeping bags, camp beds, sleeping mats, blankets and towels (please ensure that all are in a clean and usable condition).
- Matches, torches and batteries, wind-up torches, head torches or other equipment that can be used for light.

- Large, collapsible water containers and reusable water bottles/sports bottles.
- Basic toiletries such as hand sanitiser, soap, toothpaste, wash cloths, toothbrushes, tissues, razors and shaving foam.

- Vitamins, medicine and basic first aid supplies like plasters, bandages, antiseptic creams and over-the-counter painkillers.

- Although we have found it more efficient and cheaper to collect monetary donations to buy food on site, we still welcome food donations such as dry, packaged and tinned food (tins with ring-pulls only please) that is easily transportable and won't quickly expire. Pulses and grains such as lentils and rice are much appreciated, and products that do not contain gelatine or pork are important.

- Camping stoves, pots, pans and utensils.

- Smart phones with sim cards, and European adaptors.

- Books in varying languages, including dictionaries and educational books."

"Not collecting at the moment -
- Women's and children's clothing
- Women's sanitary pads
- Babies' clothing
- Nappies, baby wipes
- Sheets and pillows
- Suits and formal dresses or shoes"

This is their website, by the way, www.re-act.scot/ with lists of what is needed, instructions for packing and labelling what you donate (helps with the sorting) and the address of the drop-off point. They are organising more drop-off points all over Scotland, and looking for volunteers and co-ordinators.

Ten to one?! Poor women and children. I'll donate money direct to where the families are. Back in refugee camps?

The clothes and so on collected are going straight to refugee camps. They drive down lorry-loads.

Re-act accept money donations too, and use it to buy stuff on the spot, or to pay the costs of transport etc.

Different organisations collect different lists of things to send. Things which are not currently useful are handed on to other groups, or other charities, so they are not wasted. However, everything has to be sorted into categories for efficient handing out, which takes much volunteer effort. Handling a lot of stuff that won't help the intended receivers takes time that could be used on what will.

On channel 130 now, volunteers going to Calais.

Why do all these men still go to Calais? What do they think is going to happen? It has been made ultra clear to them that the UK isn't going to suddenly say 'oh all right then. In you come'!
Traffickers making lying promises?

Lying traffickers is a distinct possibility, but you'd think they would have heard how it is once they reached France. I suppose once they have set off on the journey they keep going - better going forward than turning back. The triumph of hope over reality?