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pacifists/conscienti ous objectors/Jeremy Corbyn

(240 Posts)
soontobe Tue 17-Nov-15 08:14:07

I dont get it.

Would they do self defence or not?
Would they defend a neighbour or not?
Would they defend somone at the end of their street that they did not know very well, or not?
Would they defend someone who they didnt know who lived in the next town, who they came across that needed defending?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34832023

Or is it a case of, they are not happy about it, but would do it if they had to?

soontobe Wed 18-Nov-15 12:16:43

allule. The ways have been tried but they are not listening. Meanwhile some grandchildren are trying to kill other grandchildren, and in some cases succeeding. You have dead grandchildren already. Do you carry on merely talking?

soontobe Wed 18-Nov-15 12:13:01

whitewave. Your post of 12.23pm yesterday.
This is the nearest I can find to what you said
www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/03/jeremy-corbyn-cannot-envisage-sending-british-troops-overseas

which is actually not at all like you said?

WilmaKnickersfit Wed 18-Nov-15 12:03:41

I thought the gist of what JC said was that he wasn't likely to support military action that could be considered an illegal war i.e. Aggression against another state without the sanction of the UN or NATO. Syria hasn't invited us in to my knowledge. I didn't hear him say he would never support military action.

allule Wed 18-Nov-15 10:26:56

As a grandmother, do you encourage your grandchildren to settle their differences by fighting it out with no holds barred, regardless of injuries and damage to the house and bystanders, or do you try to find ways of getting them to sort out their differences by discussion and negotiation?

Anniebach Wed 18-Nov-15 10:24:18

Perhaps googling for every topic isn't helpful?

soontobe Wed 18-Nov-15 10:21:14

I will reiterate, that I only briefly googled. And add that I only then mainly looked at it from a God/Bible point of view.

I remember very little study of the two world wars either at primary[probably there was none] or secondary[I gave up history as a subject as soon as I could], and I dont remember what we studied, but whatever it was, there were not many history lessons, and I am pretty sure that there was little or very little talk about WWs. I do remember Henry 8th, that is all I remember.

Anniebach Wed 18-Nov-15 10:12:29

Nothing to do with God , all to do with a pacifist , so as you disagree with him how can you ask what pacifism is ? You ask about Corbyn and pacifism , it has nothing to do with his politics, I spoke of Soper but not of his faith

Did you not study the two world wars in school?

soontobe Wed 18-Nov-15 10:03:45

The God and war topic I happened to start before the attrocities in Paris. But anyone is welcome to put anything to do with God or war or whatever they like on there. Prayers too. Whatever.

soontobe Wed 18-Nov-15 10:00:33

I dont really understand what he stood for. As I said before I was very young at the time, early teens? So having only briefly googled and going by what you have written about him, yes I disagree with him.
[you might be best bringing this up on a religious topic such as God and war, rather than news and politics?]

Anniebach Wed 18-Nov-15 09:55:01

soon, you said in a reply to me that you disagreed with Lord Sopers views, how could you disagree when you now say you don't understand what he stood for ?

soontobe Wed 18-Nov-15 09:45:00

Thank you Elegran for that description.
I am 20 years younger than a lot of gransnetters, and did not know much of the above post at all.

A couple of more questions please?
Would a pacifist therefore go to war? And do defence and self defence?

Elegran Wed 18-Nov-15 09:28:00

soon The term "conscientious objector" was given in wartime to those who refused to obey the summons conscripting them into the armed forces, because they did not believe in killing, not even killing in defence.

They were instead directed to other work, like stretcher-bearing for first-aid teams, where they did sterling service helping the injured, often losing their own lives under fire. Some of the alternative work was arduous and dangerous, and they were generally despised by the soldiers and called "conchies"

They would not have killed for a different army, because it had nothing to do with the ideals of their own country.

A pacifist believes in peace and works for it.

soontobe Wed 18-Nov-15 08:42:14

whitewave, while you question, IS continue.
How long would you like questioning to continue?

Paris happened while people questioned.

soontobe Wed 18-Nov-15 08:39:30

2 posters are defending the pacifism. 1 thinks that JC's stance is great. And 3 mention talk about things against IS as tit for tat/revenge.

Meanwhile what IS is doing is continuing.

whitewave Wed 18-Nov-15 08:19:25

The decision makers must always be challenged in an open democracy. Do not deride those who question any decision, it is important that any strategy is challenged to be clear what the aim and outcomes are hopin g to be achieved

WilmaKnickersfit Wed 18-Nov-15 07:37:40

I don't know why anyone would think that? confused

loopylou Wed 18-Nov-15 06:54:46

Perhaps I will ask the questions in it of the several posters on here who want IS to be allowed to carry on killing I have no idea how many, innocent people abroad.

Which posters have said that??? That's an outrageous statement!

soontobe Wed 18-Nov-15 00:04:50

I dont think that revenge is the number one motive for attacks on IS. That rather sounds like an excuse

Which rather brings me back to my op. Perhaps I will ask the questions in it of the several posters on here who want IS to be allowed to carry on killing I have no idea how many, innocent people abroad.

soontobe Wed 18-Nov-15 00:00:42

As regards cos. If they are in a country that has say differect sects/religions/philosophies. Might they decided to not join one army, but join a different one in a different part of the same country? Or go over the border and fight for one, but insist they would not fight for a certain other one? Is that how it works?

soontobe Tue 17-Nov-15 23:58:37

trisher. I had expected this thread to discuss all 3 - cos, pacifists and JC. I had thought that there were some possible gransnet members who would call themselves cos or pacifists, who could enlighten me further.

I am more than willing to be corrected about my op. That is what I really meant the thread to be about.

I googled at some point afterwards, and ended up rather confused.
If you look at the op, I actually start it with "£I dont get it".

Well I still dont get it actually. So trisher, I would be delighted if you would completely put me straight.

From googling, it appears that to some, pacifist mean one thing, and to some other people it means something else, as far as I can gather.

But I still dont know whether they would do the scenarios I mentioned or not.
After the JC stuff on here, I am not sure whether he or perhaps pacifists actually know themselves?

rosequartz Tue 17-Nov-15 23:30:41

Thank you, it does clarify things.

The only thing is that the Russians would want Assad to remain hmm

The other thing is that Hezbollah is against ISIL too - and JBC is friends with Hezbollah. They and others in the Middle East want to be rid of ISIL.

So does JBC agree with the stance of Hezbollah (but not Europeans who have the same aim?)

And so it goes on .....

jinglbellsfrocks Tue 17-Nov-15 23:27:23

" If we are going to use language let us at least do so with some accuracy." (quoting trisher)

So long as know what we mean, and we can usually work it out, that fine IMO.

It's not "tit-for-tat" bombing. It's far more than that. It's a strategy to save the Western world.

jinglbellsfrocks Tue 17-Nov-15 23:22:27

Right minded people see that IS have to be destroyed. They do want world domination.

jinglbellsfrocks Tue 17-Nov-15 23:20:30

The French, for obvious reasons want to destroy IS, and are bombing their military bases. The Russians have been bombing all rebels against the Assad regime, but since the bomb on the plane Putin has seen that it is IS who needs to be wiped out so now will concentrate on that. Cameron is determined to persuade our gov to say yes to our bombing IS. He intends to do this within a few weeks.

The French, the Russians and the UK, would become allies to get rid of IS.

Very scary. It means we will probably be next for a terror attack. Perhaps after Washington.

Assad would still be in power. But once IS is dealt with, they would all negotiate to remove the Assad regime.

That's how I see it. (to rq)

rosequartz Tue 17-Nov-15 23:02:16

I think that events have proved that this was the right decision
I meant because we would now be on the same side as Assad - the original vote which was defeated was to go in to remove him.

That is why I am confused