Should GB be a world power

theconversation.com/britain-still-thinks-its-a-great-power-but-it-isnt-50641

oh, agreed with POGS
is that allowed

How was WW2 won?
Without our allies we would have lost

By the uniting of countries to beat fascism.
Yes, including America and Russia

By the uniting of countries to beat fascism.

With thousand of boots on the ground

How was WW2 won?

'News of Britain's role training officers loyal to Syria's president, Bashar al-Assad, came after allegations his regime's forces have killed at least 450 civilians in a violent attempt to suppress the uprising. They have reportedly used tanks, snipers and armoured vehicles to crush the opposition movement.

The Syrian officers trained by the MoD were among hundreds from Middle Eastern countries whose governments pay for them to attend Britain's world-renowned officer training colleges each year. It trained 104 Bahraini officers over the same period, seven from Libya, three from Tunisia and 56 from Yemen, according to MoD figures.

Asked about why Britain has been training Syrian troops, a spokeswoman for the defence department said she could not talk about individual cases but claimed no training would be given if it would lead to human rights abuses. "The British military provide places on our flagship courses, such as officer training at Sandhurst, to develop a nation's future military leaders and instil the same values of accountability and commitment to the rule of law that underpin our own armed forces," she said. "All overseas requests for defence training are considered on a case-by-case basis and it would not be provided if we thought such training would lead to human rights abuses. Indeed, providing training to the same high standards used by UK armed forces helps to save lives and raise awareness of human rights." '

We also trained Saudi and Syrian officers in the airforce and army, as well as those from other middle eastern countries.

My understanding is the warning message is given on an emergency channel, so it doesn't really matter about the language. The fact an emergency transmission is made should always be enough. Plus the warning is given before the plane is over a border, so it really does not matter how how long the plane was in Turkish airspace, the earlier warnings were ignored.

It has to be Russian policy to continually provoke other countries because it happens all the time.

The link I gave earlier about a bakery being bombed yesterday is important because the bakery was set up last year by a large humanitarian organisation to support 45,000 displaced Syrians and not near ISIL territory. Seven trucks carrying humanitarian supplies were also attacked in the Russian air strikes that killed 44 people.

Putin is making fools of the international coalition by supporting Assad under the guise of attacking ISIL. But who wants to confront him? He is an aggressor, not an ally.

It's not so long ago that we gave military escorts to Russian 'visitors' - RAF and RN Escorts for Russian Visitors

I made no comment to DIL as I am afraid I have not read all the stuff published in the press. I have to say I did wonder if anyone would be so mad as to do it, but it just shows you don't know who to believe or trust, and if we on GN feel like that how do those in power feel? They may know more but doubt that makes it any clearer. I have a feeling the vote will be for bomb strikes tomorrow, and don't think it will solve anything. At some point they have to talk to each other, but how they are going to achieve that is beyond me. Maybe we should support Assad until ISIL is .......I am reluctant to say beaten, .......and then sort Assad out afterwards. The 14-18 war was supposed to be the one to end all wars. 20 years later we were at war again, and it has gone on in some part of the world ever since....Korea, Vietnam.....no sooner does it die down than it breaks out somewhere else. I just hope they get their targets right, sometimes I despair of the human race altogether.

Margaret

There is also the question re the 'trajectory' of the downed Russian fighter . Everything I have read, viewed factually points to the Russian fighter crossing over Turkish airspace heading toward anti-Assad rebel held territory, toward the Turkmen rebels. Had it been heading toward IS held territory maybe it might have been different, Turkey viewed it as an attack on it's own. Turkey was heard to give a warning .

I have to say Russia is known to 'play games ' over our air space and other countries so Russia is known to push it's luck often. The closest I will ever get to understanding the Russian mentality is by watching Russia Today and as expected it's reporting does not cover some aspects of the issue as say UK news.

I do however take the point your DIL has raised and I have said Turkey has two heads and needs to be reigned in. I don't have a good feeling about the EU rushing through Turkey becoming a member of the EU over the week-end because I don't trust the Turkish government, a personal comment obviously.

I could be totally wrong but I have to stick with my view in my first paragraph however.

Economically -yes but no chance
Militarily - no far too ex pensive

I think English is the language of airport flight control and exchanges between aircraft. They may not have had a speaker of Russian to hand, either, but they are likely to speak English.

Why on earth speak in English , did they think it was a British or American plane

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34929242

I thought there was a recording of the warning given to the Russian jet - in English.

It was a news item last week unless I'm mistaken.

Thanks for the link WilmaKnickersfit, you don't know who or what to believe do you. They all need a good smack!!

One problem is Russia and Turkey are on opposite sides in the conflict. Another problem is Russia's blatant and constant infringement of other countries airspace for which it has been reprimanded by NATO.

BBC News - What we know

Downing of Russian jet

44 killed as Russian planes bomb Turkish bakery

Putin is still bombing opponents of Assad rather than ISIL.

I don't know if this should go on this thread, or if I should start a new one, but thought it (if true) illustrates the difficulties of getting any number of countries to work together over anything.
I have a Russian DIL, yesterday I was at their house for lunch and to attend the Advent service at the Church in whose choir #2 son sings. She told me that the Russian plane which was shot down was in Turkish airspace for only 10 seconds, that no warning was given, but that the real reason the plane was shot down was because the Turkish foreign minister had business interests in the Syrian oil industry. The Russian bombing has disrupted this business to such a degree that it had virtually collapsed. So the Russian plane was shot down in retaliation. IF this is true, bearing in mind it's Russian media reporting it, is there ANY hope that the world can find a collective solution to the Syrian problem?
And in response to someone who asked had we learned nothing since the 1940s well no I don't think we have. It takes longer than that to mutate the human race I fear, so we are still stuck with resorting to violence if we don't get what we think we are "owed" or have "rights" to.

Margaret

Thank you Wilma, it certainly makes it clearer why so many are fleeing Syria . Also shows bombing doesn't work.

This page from Wikipedia gives masses of detail about the countries fighting ISIL and the contribution each is making. I suspect some posters will be surprised at how long the fighting has been going on and how much is already happening. If you scroll down, you will come to a table which gives an easy to read summary.

Military Intervention Against ISIL

I can't do links but anybody genuinely 'interested' as to who the 60 odd countries are in the coalition and what their limitations/contributions are look at the HUFF POST site WHO WILL FIGHT ISIS. It is only one of a number of sites but easy to read.

Yes, roseq, it was reducing defence spending. However, if you read the link, you will see that since the Autumn statement, they are increasing it to ridiculous amounts because of the war in Syria. Yet none of the planes, etc., will be ready until at least 2023.
Cameron says that the first line of government is to defend our country.
You do not defend it by sending planes to bomb Syria.

Thank you Wilma, so about six are bombing, what are the fifty four doing ?

Yvette Cooper wrote to David Cameron at the end of last week asking for more information, so I hope it will be forthcoming. I am not against military intervention in Syria, but I would like fuller answers to the questions Jeremy Corbyn asked at PMQ. At the moment I think we're considering expanding our military action into Syria because our allies are asking us to and because it makes us look bad. I am not sure that's good enough reason.