Cameron's Christmas message

I don't agree with the view that being rich is necessarily something to hold against someone. I know nobody has said that but I think it is often implied in the general negativity about capitalism.

In the Victorian era it was rich people who were the philanthropists: they had the resources and the will to try and change things for the better for people less fortunate than themselves. I reckon Tony Benn was made of the same stuff.

Tony Benn may have been well off and had a privileged upbringing, but he devoted his life to helping those less fortunate than himself.I can't bear hearing anyone knock the most decent man I've ever met .

Can you tell me where I have ever said it's just the Tories?
Same old niggle.
Please read what I say carefully and not just according to your prejudices.

But it's all out of date.
The statistics used in most cases are before the Tory government and before April 1st 2013 when the new NHS came into being with the top-down reorganisation organised by Lansley. So we cannot say how the NHS performs now compared to when Labour was in power as there are no up-to-date numbers.
The fact that it was doing so well compared to other countries shows how well it was run under Labour, not how poorly it is performing now, or even in the last five years.

Where did Tony Benn get his wealth? (and, unbelievably, hung onto it!!!) where did Harriet Harman get hers?!! All political parties have their extremely rich members with inherited wealth, privileged upbringing, and education, not just 'Tories', so don't pretend that it's only conservatives who have benefited in this way. However, I can see that it's difficult to reconcile this fact with far left politics.

A very interesting report, Lilygran (I've only skimmed over it so far)

The GN thread I was referring to had a series of posts about the way healthcare is funded in other countries. That would make interesting reading too.

Comparison of health services www.health.org.uk/sites/default/files/HowDoesTheNHSCompareWithHealthSystemsInOtherCountries.pdf

Knowing the causation would illuminate the raw statistics I would guess that anyone admitted at the weekend could be as an emergency, or something which could not have been predicted. That could influence the death rate. So could all manner of things.

That's good criticism, dj. Thanks for the link.

Here is more interesting stuff.

for people who don't want to read the links, the essence, as I understand it, is that those statistics were used badly (what's new?) and the usual stuff about no actual information about causation.

www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h3575

Criticism of the statistics.

Actually, roseq, the statistics used for hospital deaths were 2009/10, so were under a Labour administration.

fullfact.org/blog/2015/dec/health_secretary_excess_weekend_deaths-50279

I wonder why there are no more up-to-date ones.

Things have been going wrong with the NHS since very soon after it first got going. The need for money expanded exponentially along with the expansion of its remit. If there had been a different funding framework in place to start with there would be different systems now to pay for it, as there are in some other countries which have more efficient health schemes and don't seem to cater worse for their patients, but the concept of "free at the point of delivery" won't be altered at this stage.

A while ago, we had some very interesting posts about government health schemes in various countries. Can anyone dig up a link to that thread?

High rainfall, fault of the Tory Government?
I am almost wishing ( but not quite) that a Labour Government under Saint Corbyn will get in next time, then I can enjoy complaining on these threads about all that is wrong in society and blaming it on him.

New hospitals were built during the time of the last labour government , now hospitals , care homes and rehab centres are being closed and as for mental health services !

Things were going wrong with the NHS before Cameron became PM.

Note: do not jump to any conclusions about my political inclinations or my voting history on the basis of that statement of plain fact; your conclusions will most likely be wrong.

Ill treatment in homes for the elderly is on the increase, fault of the Tory government ?

Sorry, particularly left wing ones?
What rubbish. Where did Cameron get his wealth? Where did Osborne get his?
I never said Labour politicians did not do it.

Anyway, what I said is that all people in this country, those who own property as well as those who work here, should all pay their taxes on money made in this country. Does that not make sense to you? Because it certainly does to me.
Then we can afford to have a properly funded, properly managed health service free at the point of use.
Have you not thought how ridiculous it is that the government is saying that they will give the NHS £8 billion providing it saves £22 billion, when there is a funding gap of £30 billion?
It does not make mathematical sense, unless you are on a mission to undermine the NHS.

Trisher there is going to be another interesting development from what Osborne and Cameron are doing to party funding.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/01/labour-could-stop-cooperating-tories-protest-party-funding-cuts

Not just Labour, all opposition parties. They reckon that all MPs will have to turn up for every vote, which will mean that there will be less time for each bill, and fewer bills being passed.
Lets hope democracy wins.

They do not even need to pay more than they should, just own up to fiddling by various means and pay the amount required by country-by-country reporting.

Yes, I agree with you djen. They should be ashamed (or taken to court).

Why did they say death was more likely if you were admitted at a weekend?

Such hyprocisy! Death was more likely when Labour were running the NHS, especially at Stafford Hospital.

Short memories, some people, or perhaps you had no experience of it.

Things are going badly wrong in NHS England because Hunt and Osborne are on a mission to undermine it

So it is very puzzling why Welsh NHS patients are being sent over to England in droves to have treatment because they can't get it in Wales, and Welsh NHS patients are being advised by their GPs to go for private consultations and treatment if they have either the means or belong to any kind of health top-up scheme.

You've been reading newspapers owned by foreign billionaires again haven't you
Do I get an apology for that? Very, very rude, untrue and you know nothing about me, what I read - I even may read some of the very many links so kindly put on GN too.

You do not know how many members of my family work in the NHS, how they work perfectly well for the benefit of patients until new 'managers' come along and start interfering, how senior managers are driving out valuable consultants who then decide to emigrate and leave their families.

So don't presume anything about me, and I won't presume that you have relatives in the top managerial echelons of the NHS.

Of course they should dj, particularly inheritance tax, which the wealthy whoever they are seem particularly adept at avoiding, at times causing raised eyebrows in disbelief. It's not only 'Tory toff's or the PM's wealthy pals who have a natty scheme up their sleeves!! Extrodinary how some people live in such style and seem to leave so little money. Smacks of hypocrisy really, like a lot of 'don't do as I do, but do as I say' politicians particularly left wing ones!

Thanks dj. I notice the government are still going on about making it a 7day NHS. Thought they might have given up on that one because most of us know it already is.
I wonder if Cameron thinks the doctors are going to be his version of the miners' strike?

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/29/junior-doctors-implement-strike-action-plans-nhs-government-talks-falter

Junior doctors still likely to strike, trisher. They have until 4 p.m. Monday.

Yes, niggly, the rich should pay more in taxes. What's wrong with that?
They do not even need to pay more than they should, just own up to fiddling by various means and pay the amount required by country-by-country reporting.
As Cameron says at least once a week, it's the right thing to do.
They do actually use the NHS as much as the rest of us. Even Cameron used the NHS. I wouldn't fancy Hunt's chances of going to his local A&E any more, though.

So how is it to be paid for? Taxation? Not from the rich whatever their political persuasion! Of course private money will have to be put into the NHS, but any government who starts charging patients would be very unlikely to win another election, certainly not in the short term, and let's face it 'winnng' at all costs is the name of the game, and charging the sick would not be a very good political move!

The simple answer ( as opposed to paranoid ones) MONEY.