Loss of nurses burseries

Anybody else find this weird?
Is it a way of running down the NHS even more, and privatising both it and education?

"The government’s labour market experts say most skilled migrants from outside Europe bring scarce new skills to Britain and are higher paid than their British counterparts, but that there are some jobs – especially in the public sector, such as doctors, nurses and teachers – where they undercut UK salaries by up to £6,000 a year.

They recommend that the squeeze on the recruitment of skilled labour from outside Europe, currently running at 151,000 people a year, should include a sharp rise in the minimum salary threshold for jobs filled from overseas from £20,800 to £30,000."

Nobody from outside the UK can be offered a job unless the salary is at least £30,000. That means no junior doctors, nurses or teachers from Africa or Asia. They can come here and train, but cannot take a job here because the starting pay would be too low.

Whether people agree with the necessity of having a degree or not, ordinary nurses were not responsible for that decision.

Have those people who think nurses have such a cushy life actually been nurses themselves? Similar criticisms are made of teachers. If everything is so great, why is it so difficult to recruit and retain nurses and teachers? I would imagine that getting rid of the bursary will cause even greater problems with nurse recruitment. It seems that the morale of all the people working in the NHS is at rock bottom.

My husband originally trained as a nurse. He worked very long hours with very poor staffing levels, but he did get paid during his training (enough for us to just about manage to live on). He does feel that some practical and hygiene standards and procedures have deteriorated but surely that is not the fault of the nurse but something that has changed within the whole system. It seems to me that in many jobs these days people seem to have less knowledge and expertise than they used to. I think it must be something to do with the training.

Just a thought, but why can't nurses and doctors be treated as apprentices while training and paid as apprentices?

Good ideas (and commonsense) - can we put you in charge Joelsnan?

DH's aunts were very proud to have trained at Guy's in London in the 1920s (they were not Londoners, they were young women all the way from Wales).

Good idea, Joelsnan. My mother was an SEN.

All you have to do is persuade those in control.

I am glad to see that I am not the only one who wishes nursing would revert to the hospital based training which resulted in nurses being proud to wear the badge of their training hospital which had given them a high level of patient centred skills and expertise complemented by relevant underpinning academic knowledge without the need for academic dogma.
Nursing is a vocational occupation. Since Nightingale new skills have been learned and applied without the need for a university awarded degree.
If a degree is still considered a requirement, why can't the RCN become the awarding body following standard hospital training and external examination as before, the SRN could be additionally awarded BSc, SEN's also receive Diploma and HCA's receive certificates.
No need for bursaries or loans, student nurses would receive a salary whilst training (as before) and would drastically cut the requirement for agency nurses... job sorted

Wilma do you think it's a possibility that you went back in time to 1955?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/109649/signatures/new

It took just 18 MPs to decide that poor students should not have maintenance grants.

www.independent.co.uk/student/news/the-moment-18-mps-in-a-committee-most-people-have-never-heard-of-axed-maintenance-grants-for-england-a6814151.html

Unfortunately for them, the Lords do not like it and are going to debate it, and there is going to be an emergency debate on it in the Commons.

I hope all those voters who feel they have been betrayed by the government tell them so in no uncertain terms at the next election. Hopefully in the same way they told the Lib Dems at the last one.

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/13/plan-to-end-student-grants-without-commons-vote-outrages-opposition

It's not just nursing bursaries that are going to go. It's all student maintenance grants, and without debating it in parliament.

rosesarered that's the exact opposite of my time in University Hospital Coventry last year. My bed was changed every day (what a bother ) and I couldn't believe how thorough the cleaning was on both wards I was on - everything was colour coded so that cross infection was prevented. In fact, when I back was back home, I went out and bought versions of 2 of the cleaning brush thingys used by the cleaners. My water jug was replaced 3 times a day as was a new plastic cup, and the food was fine too - including a choice of vegetarian options. The neurological ward had a matron and at one point she asked my opinion about when a new notice board with information for visitors and patients should be hung. It was weird sight, me moving at a snail's pace with my walking frame and this bustling woman in the dark blue uniform.

One of the reasons permanent staff were so busy has already been mentioned - agency staff were not allowed to carry out all procedures. I needed my cannula moved several times and I had to wait for a permanent nurse (or a doctor) to find time to do this.

It depended on the policy of the local authority whether they paid or not (though I have no special knowledge of medical training)

You must have been the exception! Everyone I knew had their fees paid by their LEA even if their parents were well off and expected to contribute to their living expenses.

Strangely though my husband didn't as he lived in Birmingham who paid the fees of any student with an university place. South Staffordshire where I lived didn't.

Yes! My father paid them.

Yes, I did trisher both at the time on the ward and afterwards by letter to the hospital.No satisfactory answers forthcoming, but an apology by the hospital, which said more 'staff training' would be done. probably a generic letter sent out.

But Galen you wouldn't have had to pay any course fees would you?

Did you complain rosesarered? On the few occasions my mother hasn't received excellent care I have always raised the matter through the complaints system, usually with some ideas about improving things. I have always had a positive response and seen some of my suggestions introduced. Sometimes managers just aren't aware of what is happening.

But it was never normal practice here!

I believe in Spain it is normal to go into hospital with a minder who did all the changing beds , bedpans,feeding etc while the nurses did the injections and general medication. If you didn't have family then you hired someone.

All I know is that a few years ago,when DD was in a large hospital local to me, I had to virtually live on the ward with her and take care of her basic needs, even when her blood and sweat stained sheets had not been changed for three days, found the linen cupboard and changed them myself.Brought fresh water to drink, and bedpan when she needed it.The nurses certainly were not rushed off their feet, but you had to wait for auxiliaries to do the 'rough stuff' and they rarely put in an appearance.African cleaners who came round once a day at odd times (male) hovered about and looked at things and pushed a grimy mop around but rarely emptied overflowing bins.All in a ward where patients had cellulitis and similar!! It Really was disgusting, and I thought to myself 'bring back the ward sister and Matron'.

No. No grant. Father earned too much.
We also worked on the wards as well as attending lectures etc.

DH and I have noticed that ward nurses seem rushed off their feet with too few nurses, especially on the emergency admissions ward, whereas, if we visit a clinic, there seem to be too many nurses working in a very leisurely fashion, walking round with a file in their hand, singing a duet (cheers us up no end though!).
In fact, one ward sister commented to me that life in the clinics is a doddle compared to the hard work of the wards. So who decides what proportion of nursing staff is needed where?

Teetime from what you say, starting as an auxiliary nurse and ending up in a very responsible position, wouldn't you say that (with a few tweaks) the 'old' system worked well?

Harrigran I don't agree with your point.
It's a vocation just like teaching is and you do need a good standard of education.

My daughter really enjoys the basic physical care bit, bathing patients and washing the hair of those who are well enough.

This is as well as her needing to know the highly technical stuff of the ITU ward she works in. Stopping confused patients from pulling out cannulas drains etc. Recognising patients in critical conditions. and much more.

It does also need care assistants trained for hospital work.

I spent 3 weeks on A&E ward and a neurological ward in a large hospital year and can't understand why anyone would go into nursing these days. I met several student nurses and got the impression that they looked at their training as a necessity to specialising later. Although most were planning to stay in the NHS (at least one was going to Australia), none were thinking about staying in general nursing where they primarily worked on wards. Agency nurses were everywhere and mainly foreign. These nurses combined efficiency with kindness. Most permanent nurses were too rushed off their feet to be like kind to patients. Often a ward would only have one permanent nurse on duty and many refused to allow this, so help would arrive from somewhere. I met two nurses I thought were in the wrong job and both were British.

There's definitely a need for nurses below degree level, but the real problem is the lack of permanent staff, not least because of the lack of continuity of care. Different agency nurses every day also puts extra pressure on permanent staff. I felt lucky not to need much nursing care, but it made me anxious to see patients waiting too long for the attention of a nurse. Who'd be a nurse?