Cameron - friend of Muslim women?

I don't think people should be coerced in that way - and I think it's totally unacceptable to target just one section of the immigrant population.

theconversation.com/david-cameron-should-celebrate-muslim-women-not-strip-them-of-their-identity-53347

What some Muslim people think of Cameron's idea.

Surely that is the point of the new visa applications. The government won't be able to "encourage" them to learn English, they will have to learn in order to stay.

David Cameron stopped the free English classes in the first place but now he finds it politically expedient to make an issue about Muslim women who can't speak English - I think to appease that section of the population which has an underlying animosity to immigrants, and particularly Muslim immigrants.

Some of these women who can't speak English probably come from backgrounds very different from our own - much more sheltered and restricted - and they may have had only a very rudimentary education. It is going to be difficult to encourage them to venture into the alien environment of adult education classes when the world outside their own family and community must feel like a very hostile one.

I'm perplexed by your comment, Eloethan. What relevance does it have to the government offering English lessons to muslim women?

What's that got to do with the value of learning the language of the country you have chosen to live in?

If I lived in a country where I felt that a large number of people disliked me and blamed me for all sorts of social problems and criminal acts, and some people spat at me in the street, called me a "dirty Paki" or a "terrorist", I'm not sure I would value that community's approval or voluntarily co-operate with it.

I'm dismayed at some of the comments on this thread.

Well, they don't need to be 'persuaded' if it's a government initiative, do they? We aren't having a referendum on it...

Not all, Jane10. Some think they should pay for it themselves. Some think they should not be allowed in unless they can speak English well enough to be able to get a job.

These are the ones that need to be persuaded; however, I think they never could be.

Yes, most have expressed the opinion that it's a good idea, in theory at least.

I don't know how the thread has morphed into a series of posts admonishing the English for historical racism and giving statistics about the benefits of immigration to the UK. I think most of us realise that many services would collapse without immigrant employees, but the proposed English language lessons are not intended for those already fluent enough to hold down a job.

I am in agreement. It's just not enough, too targeted and I'm concerned about value for money.

Jane, you would think so,wouldn't you?! To be fair, most of us do.

Erm despite all our political differences aren't we all agreed that's its a good thing that the govt is putting some money into providing English lessons for these people?

Signs in Windows stating no blacks were not the mi privy, I suggest you read of the lead up to the Race discrimination act of 1965 followed by a strengthened if the act in 1968.

No we didn't have the problem in South Wales , more reading - the miners of South Wales and Paul Robson, South Wales had long accepted black workers because of the pits . We didn't have no blacks signs in shop windows either

Possibly because at that time the Welsh knew what is was to deal with racist slurs , well long before that time too

Those who want immigrants to pay for their own lessons seem to be forgetting that asylum seekers are immigrants, do not have money very often, and are not allowed to work here until their status has been ascertained and refugee status granted. Even then they are not always allowed to get work.
How are they to pay for their lessons?

Yes, Nonnie you are one of the posters I was thinking of and tbh your reply shows how far apart we probably are in our thinking. Their contribution is relevant because firstly we need it to lift us out of the current financial situation and secondly because they're less of a drain on the economy than native Britons. I know many people perceive immigrants as a drain on the economy, but the truth is they are less likely to be claiming benefits, living in social housing, etc. than people born here. Overall as a group immigrants pay in more than they take out and that means we all pay less in the end. Is the benefits system under strain? Are public services including the NHS under strain? Yes, to both questions. But that's not because of immigration, it's because of the decisions made by government and not just the current government.

Another unpopular fact is that one of the reasons the UK doesn't have limits on migration, isn't because it forgot or didn't think about it when the agreement was signed. It's because along with Ireland and Sweden, the UK wanted to make it easier for workers to move here, to choose the UK over other EU countries so our economy benefited instead of another's.

That's why we should make them welcome. We want them to be contributing as much and quickly as possible, otherwise we're cutting off our nose to spite our face.

"contributing to the economy" is not the same as spending money in it. Tourists and people with second homes may help the economy but they don't "contribute" in the usual sense this is used.
"Contributing" is doing a useful job, paying your taxes and encouraging your children to do likewise. A huge number of immigrants start businesses and create jobs. I suspect they are far more entrepreneurial than the anglo-saxons. So that is another way they "contribute'.

If immigrants and the children of immigrants downed tools for a day how many crucial things would grind to an instant halt?
The NHS
London Transport
Thousands of hotels.
in fact
London - where immigrants fill many essential jobs that would be unfilled without their efforts.

Wima I think I may be one of the people you are referring to and I don't see why the contributions immigrants make is relevant. They are paying in just as the rest of us are for the same things, schools, health, roads etc. How does that make spending money on teaching English, translating public documents into several languages and providing translators fair? I still maintain that we should do as some other countries do and let them show they want to live here by making their own arrangements. There are so many other areas where people do not have a choice on which this money could be spent.

Petra well put, in Spain people who go contribute and not take out. as for Anya's nephew saying that the English want to live in English communities, that is up to the Spanish if they don't like like, I personally would not be so arrogant as to expect the locals to learn my language if I had to deal with Spanish people,but as immigrants are adding to the economy and not taking it out doubt it would be a problem. I doubt many people gonto Spain and get a council house, free health care, education, translators etc etc. It is not just about Muslms, it is all people coming here to settle. It is not rascist its to have a big of common sense about the problem, and it is a problem. How far do you want to go back about in fairs to this country, the dark ages perhaps, what is noticeable that despite many people settling her and integrating well through work, the language is still English as it is in so many countries.

Where on earth do you get that idea from Annie? I accept that certain people (and there will always be people like that) were unwelcoming, and some people who had not met or worked with black people before might initially have been wary, but it certainly wasn't the majority.

It's always the few, like those minority that out signs in their windows, who get remembered.

I, too, wonder if you perhaps witnessed this where you grew up? Unlike Petra we had very few black or asian kids near us where we grew up, but the few we had were just accepted, except by the odd bigot, who sadly will always be with us.

I think everybody is in agreement that if someone wants to come to live in this country, then they must learn English. I don't see anyone saying anything different to that.

But that's where the agreement stops.

The sticking point seems to be that some posters don't think the tax payer should pay for them to learn English. No information should be provided in any language other than English. If their English is not good enough, they should provide translators for any services they want to access. Basically they have to integrate to our society, but at their own cost.

Does that sound about right?

Forget all about how important the contribution immigrants make to the economy is to the government meeting its financial targets. This is a quote from an article in the New Statesman last year -

The unfashionable truth is that the UK now needs immigrants more than ever. An Office of Budget Responsibility report two years ago bluntly spelled out the choice facing the UK. All other things being equal, the OBR predicted that high net migration would result in public sector net debt at 73% of GDP by 2062-3. With zero net migration it would double, to 145%, compared to 79.1% today. This is because immigrants are hard-working – those who arrived since 2000 have been 43% less likely than natives to receive state benefits or tax credits – highly educated and are more likely to be of working age than the native British population. It is no coincidence that as the Conservatives have moved ever further away from their pledge to reduce net migration beyond 100,000 – the most recent annual figure for net migration was a cool 298,000 – so growth has returned to the economy, nor that the economy is doing best in the capital, where immigration is highest. You can have a “clampdown” on immigration or you can have economic growth – but no one has worked out how to have both.

Like it or not, the UK needs immigrants and it's in our interests to help them integrate even if it costs money.

Why does Little Englander keep coming into my mind when I read some posts on this thread?

I can only speak about where I came from, Woolwich.

Anya,the government brought the windrush people , there was heavy labouring work needed, we as a nation did not welcome them

Why did London have signs in Windows stating no blacks, no dogs , and they did , to say no is denial

I don't know where many of you grew up. I grew up in Southeast London. In the 50s and 60s this was areal melting pot of nationalities, but I don't remember any problems, was that because I was a child?
One thing I do remember very clearly was that the West Indian population, the Irish and Chinese mixed in with all of us but the Asian community kept themselves very much to themselves.